This week, I’m joined by fantasy writer Melissa Caruso. Melissa shares how editing is like a car, the different flavors her editors at Orbit have brought to the work, and how her copy editor inspired a character’s name. Plus we discuss what is perhaps the scariest note an editor can leave in the comments: “Why?”
Music: Harlequin by Kevin MacLeod
Link: https://incompetech.filmmusic.io/song/3858-harlequin
License: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
Show Notes:
@melisscaru on Twitter, melissacaruso.net
Swords and Fire trilogy: The Tethered Mage, The Defiant Heir, and The Unbound Empire
Rooks and Ruin trilogy: The Obsidian Tower, The Quicksilver Court in 2021, and TBA 2022
Gemmell Morningstar Award
Lupa the puppy: https://twitter.com/melisscaru/status/1420756301324369923/photo/1
Lindsey Hall, senior editor at Tor: https://twitter.com/lindseyhall17
Sarah Guan, editor at Erewhon Books: https://twitter.com/Sarah_Guan
Nivia Evans, senior editor at Orbit: https://twitter.com/NiviaEvans
Kelley Frodel, copy editor: https://www.kelleyfrodel.com/
The Mask of Mirrors by M.A. Carrick: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/51340378-the-mask-of-mirrors
City of Lies by Sam Hawke: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/36225135-city-of-lies
The Rage of Dragons by Evan Winter: https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/41952489
The Jasmine Throne by Tasha Suri: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/50523477-the-jasmine-throne
Empire of Sand: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/39714124-empire-of-sand
Transcript:
Ariel: Hi there and welcome to Edit Your Darlings, a podcast that tries to take the sting out of editing by talking with darling authors about their experiences.
I'm Ariel Anderson, and today I'm joined by Melissa Caruso! Melissa is a fantasy author, tea drinker, LARPer, mom, and all around geek, which of course we say with the highest of endearment. She writes books of magic, murder, machinations, and mayhem. Her complete Swords and Fire trilogy, which takes up a prime place on my bookshelf, consists of The Tethered Mage, The Defiant Heir, and The Unbound Empire. The Tethered Mage was shortlisted
for a Gemmell Morningstar Award.
Her new Rooks and Ruin trilogy begins with The Obsidian Tower, and it will continue later this year with The Quicksilver Court and a final installment in 2022. And Melissa is represented by the amazing Naomi Davis of Bookends Literary, and I can't believe I got her on my show. So thank you so much for making time to talk with me, Melissa.
Melissa: Oh, it's an absolute pleasure to be here. Thanks for having me.
Ariel: I follow you on Twitter, you're one of my favs. And I noticed that in addition to word craft threads, and those super cute pictures of your mischievous pup Lupa, you tweet a lot about your editing process, which a lot of authors tweet about sort of their publishing process, but not so much behind the curtains. And one of your recent tweets was, “It more or less goes like this: I can write really good stuff maybe 20% of the time. So if I do enough edit passes, I can eventually get like 80% of the book up to being really good.” Let's start there. How many edit passes is the “enough”? And how much do you think each pass improves your work?
Melissa: Sure. Well, I mean, the real truth is that different parts of the book wind up needing a lot more or fewer passes than others, like so on my first draft, okay, maybe that 20%, if I hit that about—and that’s, I made up that number—but there'll be a certain percentage of the book where I'm like, oh, yes, I nailed that. And it will only wind up needing light edits for the entire rest of the process. And then there's, you know, I might have one chapter, I have to rewrite like five times from scratch, or I might have, I might throw out 40% of the book entirely. Or there might be a big stretch where I just every time I go through, it gets a little bit better and a little bit better, a little bit better until it's where I want to be. So it really varies.
In terms of the drafts my editor sees, a lot of that drafting and redrafting just kind of going on just on my end before I pass it off. My editor is going to see a structural edit draft and a line edit draft and, you know, then copy edits, and there may be a bonus draft in there somewhere. But for me, it really varies how many passes it takes per book to get it to the point where I'm satisfied that it's as good as it can be.
Although it's funny, because you use the word how many is “enough.” And my attitude is very much that there's no such thing as good enough. Because like, if you think about your manuscript like a car, right? You can get your car to the point where it runs that's when you have a working story and that’s probably about when my editor sees it. You know, and it may make some weird noises and the door won’t close quite right. But it'll run! You can drive to the store and drive back and no one will die, right? And then you can get it to the point where, Okay, we fixed that door and we fixed the windows and now they close and the air conditioning is working. And this is great. And we have a perfectly passable car.
And then you do the copy edits, you buff it up and you shine it and then you're not embarrassed for your mother to see it. But like, there's also the well, we could still make this better. What if we put in heated seats and a really good stereo system? You know, like, there's, I feel like there's always ways it can be better. And there's—although there comes a point where you just need to be done and turn it in and have a published book instead of just polishing it forever, like your precious.
Ariel: Ooh, that are the heated seats in your novels?
Melissa: Oh, boy. If I write a scene, and I do a good job, and I'm happy with it, and it's fine and good, but then like, ah, but what if I do another pass, and I just really try and make every line of the dialogue like really hit hard with a lot of emotional punch and be like cleverly worded and stuff or, or add in some subtext or up the stakes or something? Like, even though it was fine, and it was working? Is there a way I can just make this just even more spectacular an experience for the reader?
Ariel: And so you told me that you've worked with three different editors at Orbit. Did they bring different flavors to the editing? What did you love about working with each of them?
Melissa: They definitely each... So there were some things they all did, of course. They were all really good. I love working with each one of them. But they definitely each had a little bit of a different flavor.
My first editor was Lindsey Hall, who is now a senior editor at Tor. She was my editor for The Tethered Mage and for the first half of the process with The Defiant Heir, and she would write these big, long involved edit letters that would be like 10 pages, and they would really identify everything that could be better and make it very clear. But then she'd be like, “And I'm sure you'll find a way to fix this. Good luck. I believe in you, you can totally fix this”. And I'd be like, oh, oh, boy. Sure. Yeah. But she’d be very, very clear, and really great insight into what could be better.
And then Sarah Guan, who was my editor for the second half of she came in at line edits on The Defiant Heir, And she was there for the whole Unbound Empire. And then for structural edits on the Obsidian Tower. Her approach was a little bit more like it was kind of a systemic interconnected approach that would be like, instead of saying, “Oh, this character is a little weak. They could be stronger,” she might, for instance, say, “Oh, well, think more about like, if your character has grown up in this world in that you've built, like how that's going to interact with their motivations or something.”
Like, you know, it's sort of like tying everything together, just deepening things in a little bit more of a, I don't know, like very driven by character, world building, society, how it all interacts, kind of like painting a richer picture. And she obviously did the other stuff, too. Like, if there's a pacing issue, she's gonna say there's a pacing issue, but it was a little bit of a different approach, and sort of more integrated.
And then, for Nivia Evans, who has been my editor... she came in at the end of The Obsidian Tower, and she's been my editor through The Quicksilver Court, which is coming out in October. She is like, ruthlessly seeks and destroys everything bad about your book. She just, she'll find everything that could be better and she’ll, like, find the one linchpin where if you pull it out, your entire story collapses, and she'll be like, “What's this?” and you'll be like, “Oh, God, I put duct tape over that,” like nope, you know, and or she'll just write, “Why?” in the margin. Oh, yeah. And you'll be like lying on the floor in a fetal position going like, “Why? Oh, no!” You know, as your little tower of cards collapses completely because you realize you just really didn't set up the motivations for this or justify it.
So her edits always look like they're not going to be a big deal because it’s this short little edit letter, but everything is like, “Oh, now I need to go sit in the corner and think about what I've done.” But it comes out great. Like she will really push you to make the best book you possibly can. But you know, like, you may have to cry a little bit first. I love them all, and they're all absolutely wonderful.
Ariel: So you said that Lindsey's edit letter was 10 pages, and then Nivia has these very short ones. Which one is more intimidating to approach? Like when you get that document in your email, which one makes your heart thump harder?
Melissa: Well, for me, they're all a little scary. They're always a little bit terrifying. But I think for me, the shorter ones are probably scarier. Because like, Nivia will just pinpoint exactly, like with this laser vision, exactly what is wrong and it can feel a little brutal sometimes to like see your manuscript that clearly, which is incredibly helpful, and it's the best, and then you can go fix it.
I mean, this is just me. I'm sure there are a lot of editors who will be much, much more freaked out by the 10 page letter. I'm very, I like details, and I like things explained in depth. And like, if I were writing an edit letter, it would be 10 pages long. So it's a little bit more the way I think. So I'd be like, okay, 10 pages cool. This is going to be really clear. And I'll know where to go from here. So, but they're both scary.
Ariel: And then you switched from Lindsey to Sarah halfway through your Swords and Fire trilogy?
Melissa: Yes.
Ariel: Did that make you nervous?
Melissa: It definitely made me very nervous. Because I didn't know... You know, you're just sort of left not sure what's going on. And I had a deadline approaching. And I was like, well, should I wait to get my new editor? Should I still be trying to do this on my own? And you know, and I was new. So I was like, oh, I’ll wait, but that was the wrong decision. Because the deadline doesn't move. And then you have very little time to do your edits. So I probably should have jumped in. And I learned from that experience.
Orbit really did a great job making me feel like it was going to be okay. They were like, you know, very “Oh, don’t worry. We like you. You're gonna get a new editor, who’s gonna—” And I met Sarah briefly, actually, when I visited the orbit offices before she was my editor. And I made a real idiot out of myself, because I had, they’d just told me they’d sold German rights after handing me a cup of tea. And I went, yay, and immediately like, jumped up and down and spilled the tea all over my hand and then immediately went into shaking hands with people. And Sarah was the first person I shook hands with after spilling tea over my hand. I was like, “I can't shake your hand, it's covered in tea!” I'm wiping it on my pants. And that's how I met my second editor. So if she was willing to work with me after that, I knew it was going to be okay. Ariel: So now every time you have a cup of tea, you kind of think about the best introduction ever.
Melissa: Oh, boy, well, at least you know, she knew what she was getting into.
Ariel: When we talk about trust in editing, so often I hear about how authors need to trust their editors. But you've got a different take on it. Why would an editor need to trust their author? And what does that look like?
Melissa: Oh, well, of course, I also think authors should trust their editors in addition, but yeah, you know, when I first came into being edited, you know, Lindsey was my first editor. And I wasn't sure what to expect. As an author, of course, you’re always worried about like, well, what are they going to do? Are they going to make me do things I don't want to do with my book? Or whatever, and Lindsay came in and said, “Oh, well, I want you to add 50,000 words, but keep that fast pacing that you naturally have.” And like I was, and then she just trusted me to do that. And I was like, “Oh, my God, I don't... There's nothing natural about it.” It took me so much time to get this pacing, and I'm gonna add 50,000 words, but she just trusted me.
And all my editors I feel like have given me—and I've been very lucky, I think—given me the trust that whatever fix I figure out is going to be a good fix. Like, they may suggest things like, Oh, well, you could try this or you could try this. But ultimately, I very much feel their trust in me to come up with my own creative solutions. And as a result, I never feel like I have to twist the story to fit my editor’s suggestions.
I certainly have to follow, like, if they've identified a problem, I need to fix that problem. But if I'm like, hmm, you know, I actually think I need to do this totally different thing that's nothing like what we discussed, because I know I have their trust, I can jump in and do that if I think that's going to be best for the story, without feeling like they're not going to like that.
I think that makes a huge difference. And I know not everybody... you know, I talk to authors, and sometimes they're left not sure what to do or what their editor wants, or whatever. And I think part of that is if you really feel like your editor trusts your vision for the story, then you don't have to worry as much about what they expect. And more just look at it as a collaborative effort that here's the problem they've identified and it's up to me to figure out the best way to fix it. And they trust me to do that. And of course, I can also go and talk to them if I have no idea. But yeah, I think that's really... There’ve been times when I've just like, veered off in a different direction. And I've had no worries about doing so, because I know that they're not going to be annoyed with me for taking that initiative.
Ariel: Yeah, so you feel completely empowered to go rogue?
Melissa: Yes, I mean, I'm ultimately going to be accountable. So if I go rogue, and it's a terrible direction and I mess up the story, they're gonna come back to me like, Hnnng!
Ariel: That's not the 50,000 words I was looking for!
Melissa: Right. If I introduced a subplot about, I don't know, bunny farming, then I would have been in big trouble. But you know, we would have worked on it from there. And it's scary at the same time that like, oh, boy, you know, you sort of worry like, am I... am I really not as good a writer as they seem to think I am? Because I don't know how to fix this. But then like, because they trust me, I can trust myself to sit down and figure it out. It is very empowering when you feel like your editor trusts you.
Ariel: Yeah, “Because they trust me, I can trust myself.” Ooh, there's a lot of power in that!
Melissa: Yes! There really is! I mean, and it's scary, because trusting yourself is scary. But you know, if your editor trusts you, then you can give it a try.
Ariel: And then, there's also the other side of the coin, which we've talked a little bit about, where in some instances, an author just needs their editor to push them a little with maybe those “Why?” comments. So what's it like to have your editor call you out when, perhaps, you might be sneaking something a little underdeveloped through a draft?
Melissa: Oh, well it happens all the time, at least with me. Maybe it's just me... I don't think it's just me. Basically any time there's something that I'm shying away from, like, Oh, I don't want to figure out exactly how that part of the magic system works. Or, oh, I am not clear on this character's motivation, but maybe it doesn't matter. Maybe it'll be fine. You know, or I don’t know what the timeline is here. It's been some number of days... surely, I don't need to figure that out. You know, like, inevitably, inevitably, my editors will be like, “So, I don't really have a sense of how many days have passed here. You might want to just cut out you know, check in with that on a... so we know what's going on.” Or like, “This worked this way in in this scene with this aspect of the magic, and this way in the other scene. Maybe you could just kind of clarify that.” But I'm like, “Oh, no!” You know, or anywhere where I haven't done the work. Inevitably, my editors are going to catch it, which is great, because that's their job, you know, as to not let me get away with my lazy. I'm glad they do it. And it makes the book better. But there's a part of me that always is like, Oh, no, they found it!
It's like when you’re cleaning your room and you shove everything under the bed and in the closet, and it looks great. Doesn't it look great? But you know, a good editor is always going to get in there and shine the light under the bed and open your closet door and be like, “What is this?” And then you have to fix it. But oh, but the beauty of it is that a lot of times if I didn't fix it, it's because I don't know how to fix it necessarily, or I just haven't... like there's something that I haven't done the internal mental work to figure it out yet. But a lot of times the way the editor describes the problem helps me come up with solutions just that. Because I usually if I hadn't fixed it, because I may just feel a vague sense of unease about it, it's rarely that I was just like, “Haha, I will totally sneak by not doing this work and no one will ever know!” But more like, uuhh, I’m just sort of veering away from it like you would from a painful bruise. But when the editor can really describe what the problem is a lot of times that suddenly will spark new ideas for how to fix it.
Ariel: Can I go off script for just a second?
Melissa: Absolutely.
Ariel: So I'm curious about whether or not you knew that your crow lord could be redeemed, or if you needed help in coming up with his redemption arc.
Melissa: So, he was a character who kind of evolved by surprise for me. I always wanted him to be... one of my favorite character archetypes is just the sort of morally ambiguous character where you don't know what their full motivations are, and you don't know what they're up to, and you can't really predict what they're going to do. And you're kind of nervous about working with them. I just love that kind of character. There's two ways that can go: either they're actually a terrible person and you just have to work with them, or that they're not.
In this case, I think I knew from the start. Redeemed is... I don't know, whether redeemed is quite the right word. But yeah, I knew that he was going to be at least partially sympathetic and that and that there was gonna be a growth arc, but I didn't really know where his arc was going to go. He started out where I was just like, oh, this will be cool and crows are cool and this will create interesting moral dilemmas for my main character. And then he just kind of took off and ran with the story.
And then at the end of book two, I was like, I don't know where this is going in book three, I have no idea. And actually, my editor asked me—which was Lindsey at the time—after she read the first draft of a book to where Kathe appears, where the crow lord appears, she said, “Do you know how this is going to wind up?” And I said, “No, I have no idea.” She was like, “Good, don't tell me.” And I didn't tell her. And then because I didn't want to know as the author, I didn't want to know entirely where it was going to go as the author because I felt like I would telegraph it if I knew exactly where his character in the whole situation with Amalia's romantic arc was going. So I wanted to leave it a bit ambiguous.
And then I had to figure out in Book Three and had a little bit of a panic over that, and consulted with my agent and got some feedback from her that was very helpful. And she was very carefully not trying to push me any way, but just sort of like, you know, laying out ways that I could deepen the tension and make things interesting. Not specific, but just talking and broadly speaking about what sorts of buttons and levers I could press, and that was very helpful in clarifying my thinking of where to go with Book Three.
Ariel: So it was your agent.
Melissa: Yes, it was... I think Lindsey had left and I was between editors. So my agent helped me out with the brainstorming for Book Three when I wasn't entirely sure where I wanted to go. It was tricky.
Ariel: I just had to get a look behind the curtain on that one because he was such an unexpected character.
Melissa: He was unexpected for me too. So that makes that makes two of us he just he really kind of came in out of nowhere. And I love him. And I really glad he came in out of nowhere, but he definitely shook up where I thought the trilogy was going and ran in some fun and unexpected directions, which I love.
Ariel: Well, let's segue from this dark bad boy to one of the sweetest humans: your copy editor. I know that you've gotten to work with the amazing Kelley Frodel, who is just such a sweetheart. I know her through the Northwest Editors Guild, and each time that I've seen her in meetings and at coffee hours and happy hours, she just has this really welcoming smile, and she's such a ray of sunshine. Is she the only copy editor that you've worked with?
Melissa: No, I had... So it's interesting, because I don't always necessarily... in the early books, they didn't necessarily tell me who my copy editor was on every one but I found it on... there's like, one particular sheet they send that sometimes had the copy editor’s name on it, and sometimes not, but I know that for at least some of the Swords and Fire books I had a different copy editor I think, Kelley may have come in... I don't know if she was on... I don't know who did Unbound Empire because they never told me, but I think she definitely came in on Obsidian Tower. And I had her for Quicksilver Court, too. And I know I had someone different for at least the first couple books of Swords and Fire.
Oh, but I love her. She's fantastic. So it makes me happy to know she's also a wonderful person. I've never had pleasure. I hope I get to meet her in person sometime.
Ariel: She is a complete ray of sunshine. Oh, that's got to be so strange not knowing who's on the other side of those comments.
Melissa: It really is. And I honestly, I wish that they would tell you all the time, but they just say your copy editor will have comments. And then the comments just say copy editor, so you don't necessarily know who it is. But I definitely noticed... The thing about working with copy editors in general is there's always that kind of balance between correctness and style, right? So, you know, and I know a lot of times talking with authors, they'll be like, “Well, this one wants me to fix all my commas, but those commas determine the cadence of the sentence, but they're wrong,” like, so what do you do? I feel like, I love the balance that Kelley hits there. Like, I always feel like it's still my voice, which is fantastic.
And my previous copy editors were also—again, I don't even necessarily know how many I had, which is kind of sad—but they were also great, but I feel like there were some times earlier when, when I was like, Okay, this is better, because it's correct. But it's just a little bit different. And I always just went with the correct version because I'm not the type to get really, really stuck up on “but the rhythm is just a tiny, tiny, tiny bit different!”
With Kelley, I just feel like it's just it's still very much my words, they're very natural and, and her eye for concern for continuity is also great. Just the fact that even though she wasn't my copy editor on all those previous books, and she would be like, “Well, back in like book two of your first trilogy, which I didn't even copy edit, you mentioned this character's eye color was this,” and I'm like, “Oh my god. Okay, yes, you're right. How did you even know that?” And then I can fix it. So that's amazing.
Ariel: That's such a superpower.
Melissa: Oh, yeah. Yeah, I've been I've been really, really, really happy with her. And just that that deft touch that feels light, even if the page is covered in red marks, you know?
Ariel: Yeah. And then you left a note in your pre interview questionnaire that I'm just really dying to hear about: Apparently, you've named a character after one of your copy editors?
Melissa: Yes. So this was, in fact, after Kelley. There was a character who originally in an early draft of the book had only been in one scene, and I only refer to him by his title, because he was only a one scene, and I didn’t want to, like, name him and then use the name like twice ever and then have him go off screen. But in edits, his part got bigger and bigger and bigger. And suddenly he's in all these different scenes. And I'm still only referring to him by his title ever. And it was really unwieldy. And we got all the way through the copy edits and then Kelley was like, “Do you want to name this character?” I forget how she phrased it, but it was nice, but it was kind of like, “Maybe you should name this character who like is a fairly major character appearing a lot and doesn't have a name. And I was like, of course, at this point it's at copy edits, it’s down to the wire. I have like two days to finish these copy edits. I need to name this character and I was like, oh god, all right. I need to come up with a name. And I was like, You know what? He would not have a name if it weren't for Kelley. So I made his name an anagram of her last name. And his name is Lord Elford, which is scramble of Frodel.
Ariel: Oh, my gosh, I love it.
Melissa: That's in The Quicksilver Court. So, yeah.
Ariel: That's the best story we've ever had on this podcast.
Melissa: Oh, yay!
Ariel: Let's move to the questions that I asked every author I talk to. First, what do you hate about the editing process?
Melissa: I feel like there's two things, one in the early phases and one of the later phases, that I hate. In the early phases, it's just if I, you know, I'm doing developmental edits or structural edits, and I, if there's something I don't know how to fix. And I'm just banging my head against it and trying and rewriting and I just don't know how to fix it. And you know, eventually, hopefully, there'll be a breakthrough, but that's just the worst is when you're “I'm still not, I'm still not getting this and I'm not fixing it.” Like I had a real struggle with my main character in The Obsidian Tower, Ryx. In my earlier draft, I just couldn't get a grip on her. And it was actually my editor, Sarah Guan, who finally gave me what I needed to get that grip and figure out her motivations and what her stakes were in the story and what she was like as a person, and it all crystallized around this one piece of feedback she gave me, and that was great. But before that I did like, literally 15 drafts of the first few chapters of this book, it was murder.
And then the other thing I hate is—I'm sure this is very common when you get to copy edits and proofs in the final stages—is just trying to have the words I'm staring at mean anything anymore so I can try and catch mistakes and bad phrasing and stuff, when I've seen it so many times, and I hate the book by now and all the words are the same stupid words I've been staring at for a year. I just want them to go away.
Ariel: How do you keep yourself motivated?
Melissa: In those last stages, well, to try and keep myself focused, I'll read it aloud, which really helps because then, you know, if you're tripping over it in your mouth, it's not going to work good on the page or in someone's ear, either. It's, it's pretty tough, just, you know, the deadlines are pretty motivational when you're looking down them like an oncoming train. So I guess fear?
Ariel: What's the most common bit of feedback you receive on your writing?
Melissa: Probably that I needed to increase agency for my main character. At this point I almost see it as part of my process, which it shouldn't be. But like, sadly, this is the process I appear to be stuck with, where I tend to think of the story as a series of events that are happening to the main character at first, like, oh, no, look at all these terrible things that happen, and then you have to fix them. So for the first, especially the first part of the book and the middle, that means you know, if you just have character to whom these, this series of terrible plot events are happening, and they haven't gotten to the “and then you fix them” part yet, then it's very easy for them to wind up just kind of going “oh no”, and not really doing anything cool. Which is not compelling. So that's something I almost always have to fix during edits.
Ariel: I just imagined your character, like, sitting in a corner, rocking back and forth, and looking at all of the terrible things coming their way.
Melissa: It can be hard not to have them do that sometimes when you're like, Oh, this is pretty terrible stuff. Like I would be sitting in a corner rocking and being like, I don't want to, I don't want to save the world! You know? Of course can't actually make them do that. So, or at least not for very long. Maybe five minutes, and then they got to get up and do it.
Ariel: Well, do you have any last words of advice?
Melissa: My biggest piece of advice for writers when approaching their edits in general is just not to fear the work. Like, to just lean into the work. Sometimes it can be very intimidating when you're like, “Oh, I could do this. And that would make it a lot better. But I'd have to rewrite like two thirds of my book and that's terrible.” But, you know, if you possibly can just to lean into it and do it, it's just going to be so much better in the end. You know, and your editor’s probably going to make you do it anyway, so you may as well do it now.
Ariel: Well, the last portion of our program is a Hot and Wholesome Gossip Corner. Are there any other writers or creators doing something you're excited about? Any shoutouts you want to give or people you want to lift up?
Melissa: Absolutely. I can talk about some great books. I have like a past, present, and future here—not in terms of when they were released but in terms of when I read them. Recently, I read and really, really, really loved The Mask of Mirrors by M. A. Carrick. It's full of intrigue, and swordfights, and beautiful dresses, and plot twists, and really cool world building. And it's just a really incredible book and I highly recommend that one.
Currently in the middle of two great books that I would also really super recommend, and one is City of Lies by Sam Hawke, which is I love that you've got this situation where the city is besieged. And there's intrigue and the two main characters are just... They're very resourceful and smart but they don't come into this equipped to deal with this situation in the sense that they were not... it's so far beyond anything that they were trained to deal with. And they have to sort of take the skills that they have. One of them's got, kind of anxiety, and the other one has physical health problems. But that's just sort of, it's just part of the characters. It's not like made out to be like a big thing. It's just really neat seeing they feel very real people who have... you know who just living fairly comfortable lives and then are suddenly thrust into this epic situation. And it's... I don't know, they're great characters. I'm really loving it.
And I'm also listening to Rage of Dragons by Evan winter, which is incredible. Just the world building is phenomenal. There's lots of cool stabby violence and great characters. And I'm really loving that as well. The audio book is great.
And for the future, I am really excited. I got my hands on and have not yet read but I'm super, super, super looking forward to The Jasmine Throne by Tasha Suri, which I've heard nothing but amazing things about, and I loved Empire of Sand, which was her debut, and she's just such a phenomenal writer who has such incredible characters and wonderful stories and just deep immersive, really magical feeling world building. So I'm really looking forward to digging into that.
Ariel: You're so immersed in your genre.
Melissa: Well, I've always been very much a fantasy reader. The fantasy everything-er: you know, Fantasy games, fantasy everything.
Ariel: Fun stabby scenes and beautiful dresses. I love it. Well, if you want to check out Melissa's work, you can follow her on Twitter—and I highly recommend it—as @MelissCaru, or head over to her website, MelissaCaruso.net. There's still time to catch up on The Obsidian Tower before The Quicksilver Court comes out in October from Orbit. Thank you so much for talking with me, Melissa.
Melissa: Thank you so much for having me.
Ariel: If you loved this episode of Edit Your Darlings, why not share it with a friend? Remember to rate and review on Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast fix. For show notes go to edityourdarlings. com, follow us on Twitter and Instagram @editpodcast, or I'm @arielcopyedits. Until next week, cheers!