This week, I’m joined by YA writer and fellow podcaster Sarah Nicolas. You may have also read their romance writing under Aria Kane. Sarah shares tips on how to survive writing an entire draft in 4 weeks, the process they undertake from “I hate this” to “my editor is a genius,” and how they were able to swap services to get editing when they had no budget for it. Plus they kindly correct a common misconception that even I had about Pitch Wars and we go off on a tasty tangent about chocolate.
Music: Harlequin by Kevin MacLeod
Link: https://incompetech.filmmusic.io/song/3858-harlequin
License: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
Show Notes:
http://www.twitter.com/sarah_nicolas
http://www.youtube.com/sarahnicolasya
http://www.instagram.com/presidentsarah
Queries, Qualms, & Quirks: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/queries-qualms-quirks/id1554435058
Pitch Wars versus PitMad: https://youtu.be/mwH_Vu-UduU
Leigh Mar: http://pitchwars.org/mentor-profile/leigh-mar/
Minorities in Publishing podcast by Jenn Baker: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/minorities-in-publishing/id913317556
Transcript:
Ariel: Hi there and welcome to Edit Your Darlings, a podcast that tries to take the sting out of editing by talking with darling authors about their experiences.
I'm Ariel Anderson and today I'm joined by Sarah Nicolas, who describes themself as a recovering mechanical engineer, library event planner, and then author. They write YA as Sarah Nicolas and romance under the name Aria Kane. Sarah has published both traditionally and independently and has also worked in the publishing industry as an editorial intern, editorial assistant, publicist, publicity director, cover artist, and art director, and I have to imagine that half their closet is just shelves and shelves of hats.
They are the current agent liaison for Pitch Wars and the host and producer of PubTalk Live, AgentChat Live, and the podcast Queries, Qualms, & Quirks, and if that weren't enough, Sarah is also a contributor for Book Riot and the creator of the Virtual Bookish Events newsletter. Phew! Thank you for making time to talk with me, Sarah.
Sarah: Yeah, my pleasure. I love podcasts, so I love being on them.
Ariel: Let's start off with your self-editing process. You've finished a draft or you know, like the 18th draft and and gotten some feedback. Okay, and then you're headed back to ye olde word processor to start patching potholes and polishing your word craft. What's your approach?
Sarah: Yeah, well, I'm actually going to go back a little bit further. So when I finish my first draft, it tends to be very bare. I've been told it reads sort of like a screenplay. It's like dialogue and plot and not much else. And so one of the first things I do right after finishing a draft is I go through and do a revision round, that's just basically adding setting, adding description, adding some kind of internal thoughts, and usually I'll do those as two or three different rounds so I'll just do a round focus on setting, I'll do a round focus on description, I’ll do a round focused on, you know, internal thoughts, and then that usually gets me like closer to what most people would consider a first draft.
And then I read through it, and I'm very methodical in the way that I edit. I edit very much like I think an engineer would approach editing. I create a checklist of all the things that I know that I need to fix.
Ariel: Yes, I love checklists!
Sarah: And I do, basically, just one round focusing on one or two specific things, because I find that if I try to focus on all of them, then I'll get kind of hyperfocused on one and forget about the others and I have to go back anyway. So, yeah, I'll do a whole round, just to focus on a specific element that I need to enhance, such as like the relationship development between two characters, or... so one of the rounds I had to do for the book I'm working on right now is there's a character who really wants to get a scholarship, and I needed to go back and kind of work it in throughout the plot, throughout the whole book, so that it wasn't just like, Oh this one time she mentions that she wants to get this scholarship which is the reason why she's doing like everything she's doing.
Ariel: Yeah, you've got to put that motivation out on display the whole way.
Sarah: Yeah. And then I'll go to beta readers, so I’ll ask friends who've read for me before or have indicated they're interested in reading and get their feedback, and I usually wait for several people's feedback before I really get started on any kind of revision again.
I, again, make kind of a checklist of all the different things that they say. For me, it's really hard to go from an edit letter, or anything like that, to edits. I have to kind of distill it down into a list of things, right? So, I kind of put all of their feedback together in one list. and then of course, if I have the same feedback from multiple people, you know, that goes to the top of the list. And if I have feedback that only one person said, and I don't really agree with, I just kind of like take it off the list. And then I do the same thing again where I do a read=through for each major thing that I need to change.
My drafts tend to be pretty clean in terms of grammar and punctuation, even though I still do not know how to use a comma, at all. And at that point I'm just like, it's fine, the copy editor will figure that out. So I don't usually have to do kind of the line edit draft.
Yeah, and then I send it to my agent right? Or in some cases... so Keeping Your Secret was sold on spec and I had a very tight deadline, and I had to send that directly to the editor. After writing it in four weeks.
Ariel: Oh! Oh no!
Sarah: Yeah.
Ariel: Are you a superhuman?
Sarah: I don't think so.
Ariel: Do you type like 200 words a minute?
Sarah: No, I type 100 words a minute, but I don't know how I did that. I don't know if I could do it again. I did eat a lot of pizza because I didn't cook an entire meal for a month.
But yeah, I finished the first draft in three weeks and then had to do, you know those revisions, those early revisions I talked about, in one week. And then we, I only had about two weeks to do the editor’s revisions too.
But anyway, so I send it to an agent or an editor, or you know depending on the situation, whoever I'm working with. And often, I'll get the edit letter back, and I'll read it and
hate it.
Ariel: Like you immediately disagree with what they're saying, or you're just like, I don't want to do any of these things?
Sarah: Yeah, both of those. So at this point I know the process and so it's not so bad, but before... Yeah. So I'll get this edit letter, and I'll be like, they don't know what they're talking about, they don't get it. They don't understand. Blah, blah, blah. And then I'll just take like two days away from it, because now I know myself, right, and then I'll read it again, and then I’ll be like, oh, like, I can see that, maybe, you know, I'll add that to my checklist. I can add that to my checklist. If I hate it, I can just revert to an old version, right?
And then when I'm making the edits, that's when the transition really starts where, oh yeah this is really working, this is really making the book better, this is making everything stronger. And then by the time I get to the end and I've read it—because, you know, with my process I've read my book like 10 times at this point—I'm like, my editor is a genius, they're so smart, you know?
And I know this process now. But the first like two times it happened, it was really jarring, and now I just like, I kind of laugh at myself because I know what I'm doing.
Ariel: So, those first few times, when you kept feeling like, “ugh, I hate this, I don't think my editor knows what they're talking about,” how did you have faith in that process to not just be like, “well, I'm going to pull this book and go to a different editor”?
Sarah: Yeah, well, I guess the first time that happens, I had kind of written the book for this publisher. It was a novella, it was under my Aria Kane name, that was my first one that was traditionally published. And I guess I had no reason to trust the editor, but it was more of a, well let's try and see what happens. I have a contract, it would be painful to get out of the contract. It was more of like a, resisting editing would be harder than not. So I just did it and then it turned out fine, and I thought my editor was great, so.
Ariel: And then how did you know that your editor is a genius? Because at this point you've worked with lots of editors, right, and you've worn that hat yourself as an editorial assistant and Pitch Wars mentor. So what sort of signposts point the way to a good, trustworthy, actually knows what they're talking about, editor?
Sarah: Oh that's a hard question to answer, because it's... it's like the legal definition of porn, like I know it when I see it. But I guess it's just that the things that they are suggesting, once I take my pride out of the equation, make sense. As in, if I was editing someone, and I said this thing like I feel like it would be a good addition or subtraction or whatever it is to make...
And the other part of it too is, I spent a lot of time in critique groups, two different critique groups, and I think critique groups are great, not just for, you know, getting feedback on your own work or learning how to give feedback, but you can also learn what is good feedback.
Not the feedback on your own work, because that's really hard to look at objectively, but you're listening to the feedback that other writers are giving other readers in the group, and you've read those pieces, and you can separate yourself, you can pull yourself out of the equation, and then you start learning what does good feedback look like? Who is just biased and they want something from the book that isn't there? Which happens a lot of times with reviewers especially.
So I think critique groups are great for learning what is good feedback, what is a good way to give feedback, what is a good way to receive feedback. And so I really kind of trained myself in those critique groups, you know, years before I ever really submitted to publishers or agents.
Ariel: So it's kind of like exposure therapy.
Sarah: Yeah, and just experience too. You know, experience in anything is going to make it easier and make you better at it.
Ariel: And then if you had negative experiences, how would you differentiate those? What would your approach be? How would you stand on your own two feet as a writer, given negative experiences in editing?
Sarah: If, let's say, an editor was asking me to make changes that I truly, after I had that cooling off period, that I truly thought would be damaging to the book or did not serve the book or the audience, that would be a really difficult situation. Luckily that hasn't happened to me yet.
And I think that's one of the great reasons to have an agent is because you can have that conversation with your agent. You can kind of see, as long as you trust your agent, you can get a gut check and be like, “Am I overreacting?” And then, if you and your agent decide that, no, this is not good edit, basically, then your agent has to do that. Your agent has to go to bat; you don’t have to do that, so that's a great advantage of having a literary agent.
I did have... I had an experience with a small press that was a bad edit, but it was... it was a bad edit, but basically it was no edit. So it was supposed to be a content edit. I got the book back it was part of a continuity, so it's about 15,000 words, part of a larger story. And there were literally five edits in the whole book. No edit letter just these five sentence-level changes that she wanted.
And I know, like, I'm pretty confident in my writing, especially when it comes to romance, but I know that I need more than that. I don't think that book was that good, that perfect. It was pretty good, and it had already been through several other authors, the other authors in the continuity we all edited each other's work, but I still feel like the editor just didn't try. The editor was also the owner of the company though, so it's like, what are you gonna do?
Ariel: That's interesting to me because I worry so much about over-editing that I've never had an author come back and be like, “uh-uh, you did not do enough here.”
Sarah: But, I mean, it didn't turn out that badly because the reviews were all great, like people love the story, people thought the stories were well written. And I think maybe that is part of why the editor acquired the work, is because our stories were so clean because we had all edited each other's. And we had, like we had a professional editor who was one of our authors. We had me who had worked as an editorial assistant was one of our authors, And then we had another author who was just really great. She didn't do professionally, but she was just really great at editing and writing and that kind of thing. So it was pretty clean but I still it was just like all around, not a great experience.
Ariel: Bummer! But at least you had badass people around you to work with. I love that you were like, I can, I can bring it back to my agent for a gut check and then have my agent go to bat for me. It kind of reminds me that, you know, there's this idea that writers are just all alone and completely siloed, but then remembering that you do have people in your corner can make a huge difference, as you're approaching feedback and as you're publishing and just the whole, the whole thing.
Sarah: Yeah, and also having writing friends who are not just yes men. Those are great, the cheerleaders are great, but if you have writing friends who will legit tell you when you're being unreasonable or they think what you're complaining about isn't that bad, that's a great resource too. Because a lot of times we do have the writer friends who are like, “yes, you're so right. I can't believe they did that, blah blah blah,” and that's fine. And that's good, that's sometimes what you need to hear, but sometimes you need that person who's gonna be like, “actually, I think that's okay.” Those are invaluable.
Ariel: I think it's hard to reach out asking people to give honest, raw, hopefully kind but not necessarily, you know, cheerleading. It's hard to put yourself out there like that.
And so that really segues nicely into another of my questions. I'm fascinated watching Pitch Wars each time it rolls around, because authors really have to put their ideas out there and it takes so much bravery, but they get this magnificent response with people retweeting left and right and lifting up their story ideas. And I wondered if you could talk a little bit about that process and the sort of feedback that your mentees will get from you in exchange for putting their very heart out into the world on Twitter.
Sarah: Yeah, so I just want to clarify a little bit because this is a common confusion: Pitch Wars has nothing to do with Twitter. A lot of people talk about it on Twitter, but none of it actually happens on Twitter. PitMad, which we also run, does happen on Twitter. I think that's where the confusion comes in. Yeah, so PitMad, you tweet a pitch and agents like it, agents or editors like it in order to request it, whereas Pitch Wars is the mentorship program and they actually have nothing to do with each other. And so, yeah, I made a video because it's such a common confusion, and it's like one of my most popular YouTube videos.
Ariel: Ooh, I will link to that video in the comments.
Sarah: Yeah, so then in Pitch Wars, basically what happens is the hopefuls will submit their query letter, their first chapter, and their synopsis via a form. It's very much like querying, except they choose four mentors to submit to, and they do that based on the mentor’s wish list. And then, the mentors read. I've read slash before so it's very, very similar. It's pretty much the same process except we have a tight deadline. And so we all have a month to read—you know, several hundred submissions is usually what most mentors get, and then pick one to mentor.
And then we do usually a full edit with them, at least one edit. One edit is what is required. Sometimes mentors may do more but that's like they’re choosing to do that. It depends on the book. I've had books where I didn't think they needed much editing at all. But I was a publicist at the time, and so my expertise was more in pitching a book than editing the book. And so, early on, especially, I would usually pick books that I didn't think needed a lot of edits, but their pitch wasn't doing them justice.
And so we polish up the book a little bit, but it wouldn't be like a huge edit. But then I've also had Leigh Mar was one of my mentees and later became my co-mentor. I had her remove 80 pages and rewrite like half of her book, and then I had another mentee where they actually rewrote the book twice during the editing period. Yeah.
So, it can range pretty widely. I mean we hear a lot about those big edits, you know, the people who are really crunching, to do a whole rewrite, but a lot of times, it's somewhere in the middle, you know, they have a couple edits here and there just a strengthening, like you would do with an editor. A lot of the books that get picked in Pitch Wars are already so close that they don't require a lot of editing.
Ariel: So like, putting in the extra work is more likely to get your book picked in the first place.
Sarah: Yeah. We definitely have people who submit their first draft or they like literally stop, you know, finish writing it like the week before pitch wars opens. I don't recommend that. I mean I guess if that's the timeline then that's the timeline and there's no negative to submitting to pitch wars, you know? But those aren't the ones that are usually going to get picked up.
Ariel: And then literally, is it a letter, or is it in-line comments?
Sarah: The mentors all kind of have different styles, but I feel like most mentors will do an edit letter and then additionally have inline comments, so you have an edit letter for kind of the bigger things that are pervasive throughout the manuscript, and then you'll have in-line comments for, you know, the smaller things.
When I say smaller things, I don't mean punctuation, grammar, just things like, Oh, I'm not understanding why this character is making this decision right now or something like that. So it'll be a combo of both, and then usually what happens, so the mentor does have to read the book again after the edit has happened, and usually they'll provide line edits at that point, if they think, you know the edit is good, but they're not required to, but most of them will do it.
Ariel: Yeah. What do you feel like you pick up on the most?
Sarah: When I'm editing someone else's work?
Ariel: Yeah, like are you commenting on themes or setting, description?
Sarah: Yeah, I'm a big plot person. Plot and pacing are kind of my expertise. Whenever I pick a book in Pitch Wars, it's almost there but the pacing is a little bit off, that's usually the kind of book that I like to pick because that's my strong suit, but then there's also, character motivation is another strength for me. And making that character motivation also be an arc throughout the book, that's one of my big things one of the things that I like to work on. So those are the two big things that I tend to work on. I tend to choose books that have those specific issues that I like to work on.
Ariel: So let's transition back to your own writing. You publish under two names, which I can't even imagine publishing under one name. So does that mean that you work with two different teams of editors, you have two different agents, you're submitting to different types of developmental editors, you have different copy editors, one for your YA and one for your romance?
Sarah: Yeah, so my agent represents Sarah Nicolas, so my agent represents my YA, and this is the conversation that we had early on when she offered representation, because I had already been published with Aria Kane with small presses and so Aria Kane doesn't actually have a literary agent, and she did say that if there was a particular book that I wrote that I wanted her to pitch somewhere that took agented submissions that she would be willing to do that but it wasn't really her forte, but she actually has moved a little bit into adult romance. Several of her clients have published books in adult romance. I do have a book kind of in my pipeline that I'm gonna write that I'm going to send her and see if she wants to submit it to publishers because I think it does have kind of a wider appeal, but Aria Kane writes paranormal romance, which is very popular with readers but is hard to sell to publishers, because it's just such a saturated market. It's a lot of things that I just kind of write for fun, because I really enjoy them. So I'm either self-publishing or going with small presses for Aria Kane for the most part.
And so in that case, my agent edits my YAs before we go on submission with those. And then I'm pretty much only working with editors at publishing houses. And then for Aria Kane. I haven't published something from Aria Kane in a while. When I did I was a book publicist, so I was able to, for several of the books I self-published, to swap services. So I would work with a freelance editor who was also an author, and I would provide them, you know, a publicity package in exchange for an edit. And so that was really useful to me because I really did not have a lot of money. I had no money, negative money, I guess. So I don't know if I would have been able to pay for a good editor, especially not the quality of editors that I got.
And then some of the books were with small presses, so I did work with editors at the small presses. And then the one in particular, Once Upon a Darkness, you know, I specifically got permission from the editor to use the edited copy of the book in my self-publishing, but we were also friendly, you know, so.
Ariel: Yeah, and then do you feel like the genre shapes the sort of feedback that you're getting, or is your writing so consistent across the two brands that you're kind of hearing the same thing?
Sarah: I mean there are definitely some trends, like, I'm not good at description. I don't like to read it, so that's part of it. I usually when there's description, a lot of description in a book, I'll just skip it because I'm bored. I do get feedback sometimes that's like, “oh this conversation is taking place in, you know the ether.” There's nothing around these characters while they're, they're having this conversation. So that's a pretty common piece of feedback, though now, at this point, like I know and I look out for that when I do one of my self-edits.
Genre definitely, I mean, it has an impact because when I'm writing science fiction or fantasy anything under that umbrella I'm getting, obviously a lot more feedback on world building than if I'm writing contemporary, of course.
For me, it's the writing that's more difficult, the drafting, because if I'm switching back and forth between romance and YA, I struggle with maintaining the correct heat levels. So, like I'll be writing a young adult right after writing a romance, and it's getting a little too spicy.
Ariel: A little spicy?
Sarah: Yeah, I don't really write a lot of sex in my YA. My characters are very much like I was when I was a teen, and there was no sex happening. But then on the opposite side, whenever I'm writing romance right after I've written YA, I find myself being not sexy enough because I do a sexy romance, and I'm like wait, it’s page like 120 and these characters haven't really had any, you know, sexual tension yet, like that's a problem. So for me, it really comes down to the drafting and then I have to, you know, fix it before anyone else ever sees it.
Ariel: I want one of the like marks on your checklist to be “Adjust heat level, thermometer up.”
Sarah: Yes, that sometimes happens for sure. More flirting is usually what it says.
Ariel: So let's move to the questions that I ask every author I talk to. First, what do you hate about the editing process?
Sarah: I'm glad you asked because it's all of it.
Ariel: Oh no!
Sarah: I much prefer to draft over edit, and this is one of the questions I asked on my podcast. do you like editing or drafting more, and a lot of people have said editing and I just, I don't get it, but also part of that may be because of my process and how like, after a couple rounds I've read the book so many times, like I need to take a little break from it. I don't end up doing large edits usually. Usually my drafts are pretty clean even when it comes to like plot and pacing. So I'm not usually doing like big rewrites. I feel like maybe if I had to do big rewrites, I would like that more, but just kind of moving a couple things around, and a lot of it is weaving things throughout the story.
I recently had to do an edit where I needed to change kind of the pacing of the romantic subplot. So it's just like a couple sentences here and there, but it's throughout the whole book, which just feels so tedious to me. I don't know, I don't have a lot of patience for editing. But it's an important part of the process, so I reward myself with chocolate.
Ariel: What kind of chocolate. Are you like milk chocolate or dark chocolate or white chocolate or rose chocolate? Is that a thing?
Sarah: I haven't had... yeah, I haven't had rose chocolate. I do prefer milk chocolate, but I also have a soy allergy.
Ariel: Oh no!
Sarah: So u sually the only thing you can find without soy is dark chocolate.
Ariel: But you could put like nuts or carmel.
Sarah: It’s the soy that's a problem, and so they use soy lecithin in it, which is a, it's an emulsifier, which is why it's generally used in milk chocolate. But there's, there's a brand called Theo, and they make this like salted almond dark chocolate bar and that's pretty much my go-to. I can also make, like if I bake, of course I can make something without soy in it.
Ariel: I have toured the Theo chocolate factory. It's delightful.
Sarah: Oh really?
Ariel: Yeah!
Sarah: Oh my gosh, I want to go there. Where is it?
Ariel: It's in Seattle.
Sarah: Oh, that's a long way to go for chocolate.
Ariel: And maybe you've already addressed this question, but maybe you have another response: What's the most common bit of feedback you receive on your writing?
Sarah: Oh yeah, it's definitely the description, setting, that kind of stuff, those details. And then sometimes it's also a bit of the internal emotional conflict. A lot of times I feel like characters in books are overdramatic, but that's just because of my personality. And so sometimes I have to be like, Okay, Sarah, you need to make this character a little overdramatic. Because, you know not everyone is like you.
Ariel: I do feel like YA has a whole lot of angsting, a lot of yearning that goes on. And I love the yearning personally. But if you're not the type who naturally feels that angst, right, that would be hard to add in.
Sarah: Yeah, it's something that I’ve had to kind of develop over the years. Now what if we're talking about like sexual tension, tension, I got that covered. Like, maybe it's because of just like all the romance that I've read, but kind of more delicate emotions is really the ones I struggle with.
Ariel: Mmm, like embarrassment? Hesitancy?
Sarah: I’m pretty good at embarrassment. I feel like I embarrassed myself a lot but I mean just kind of the, I get the comment a lot like, “how does this make your main character feel?” I'm like, Oh yeah, she's probably should emotionally react to that, but I just don't react very emotionally to a lot of things, and I don't know why. It's like my upbringing, I guess. And so I do have to consciously kind of make those decisions.
Ariel: Yeah, yeah, I've left that comment a few times when I was line editing, and there would be like, you know, one character tells another character that a third character has just died, and the character who's hearing about the news is like, “Oh well, we we don't have time to deal with that right now, so let's go do...” you know?
Sarah: Yep, yeah that's 100% Me.
Ariel: You need a beat, right there. Just one quick, and then you can continue on with the very important “the monster’s coming and we got to get out of here.”
Sarah: It is weird because I've seen a lot of discussion—I don't know if you've seen it—on Twitter lately about, that's something that a lot of autistic writers also struggle with. And I don't think that I'm autistic but that is one of the things that I kind of see those and I'm like, I don't know, where does that come from, why am I like this?
Ariel: Yeah. That's fascinating. So do you have any last words of advice?
Sarah: Yeah, so if we're talking about editing specifically, I think I talked about at the beginning: It's really important to be able to separate yourself from the feedback that you're getting, separate your ego from the feedback that you're getting. And that was one of the hardest lessons for me to learn early on, and that is why I go through that process of “I hate my editor” to “my editor as a genius”. Because I need to take a little bit of time to separate myself.
And I think a lot of writers feel that way and the best critique groups I've been to, they don't allow the writer to respond to feedback in the moment. And I've adopted that for the group that I run for the library because I feel like you do need to put yourself in a position of receiving other people's feedback without trying to defend your work against their feedback.
And it is really hard to do especially early on. It's like emotional work that all I think all writers need to do, and I've definitely been in critique groups where the writer just wants to argue with every piece of feedback. I think watching other people do it helps me, too, because I realize they're trying to argue against another person's emotions, they're trying to argue against the way something made a person feel, and you just can't argue against that. That's not a logical thing, right? So, yeah, you just have to put yourself in a position of absorbing them, considering, seriously considering, what they're saying. You have on the back burner where if you don't like a piece of feedback, you can always discard it, but you need to seriously consider it before doing that.
Ariel: Yeah, that's perfect. So the last portion of our program is a Hot and Wholesome Gossip Corner! Are there any other writers or creators doing something that you're excited about? Any shoutouts you want to give or people you want to lift up?
Sarah: Yeah, I mean there's a lot. I just I'm so active in the literary community that we could literally spend like three hours doing this, but one I've been really enjoying lately is the Minorities in Publishing podcast by Jenn Baker. It’s an interview podcast and Jenn discusses the lack of diversity in the book publishing industry with underrepresented professionals. And so it's authors but it's not just authors. It's like editors and literary agents and marketing people and illustrators, fiction podcasters, so anyone kind of related to writing and publishing at all. And I just think it's a great way to get kind of a 360 view on the industry. And then it also has that added element of, you know representation in publishing.
Ariel: Yeah. Brilliant. Well, if you want to check out Sarah's work you can follow them on Twitter as @Sarah_Nicolas, or on Instagram as @PresidentSarah. Head over to their website, SarahNicolas.com, or subscribe to their YouTube channel, and, Sarah, where are the best places for them to listen to your podcast?
Sarah: I honestly don't care where people listen to the podcast. It's on almost any platform that you can think of that I can get on anyway. But if you are an Apple user you can leave a review and so that is very valuable.
Ariel: Thank you again for talking with me, Sarah, this has been great.
Sarah: Yeah, thank you so much for having me on.
Ariel: If you loved this episode of Edit Your Darlings, why not share it with a friend? Remember to rate and review on Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast fix. For show notes go to edityourdarlings. com, follow us on Twitter and Instagram @editpodcast, or I'm @arielcopyedits. Until next week, cheers!