This week, I’m joined by Oludara (Dara) Adeeyo, an editor, writer, and psychotherapist passionate about helping people improve their overall well-being, especially Black women. We talk about how to avoid erasing AAVE in editing passes, how to decide whether you’re being sensitive or the feedback is valid, impostor syndrome, and how writing and editing for books differs from magazines. Plus she reveals her secret blog!
Music: Harlequin by Kevin MacLeod
Link: https://incompetech.filmmusic.io/song/3858-harlequin
License: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
Show Notes:
@oludaraadeeyo
https://www.oludaraadeeyo.com/
Self-Care for Black Women: 150 Ways to Radically Accept and Prioritize Your Mind, Body, and Soul: https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Self-Care-for-Black-Women/Oludara-Adeeyo/9781507217313
Michelle Ruiz, freelance editor and Vogue.com contributing editor
African American Vernacular English (AAVE)
Erykah Badu: “I’m an artist, and I’m sensitive about my shit.”
Emilia Benton, freelance journalist: https://twitter.com/emmiemarieb?lang=en
Carla Benton, senior production editor at MacMillan: https://twitter.com/cnbenton1
“How to Talk to Your Loved Ones About Social Justice,” Women’s Health magazine article by Amelia Benton that cites Dara as the expert: https://www.womenshealthmag.com/life/a34671688/how-to-talk-social-justice/
The Other Black Girl by Zakiya Dalila Harris: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/55711688-the-other-black-girl
Transcript:
Ariel: Hi there and welcome to Edit Your Darlings, a podcast that tries to take the sting out of editing by talking with darling authors about their experiences.
I'm Ariel Anderson and today I'm joined by Oludara Adeeyo. Dara is a psychotherapist based in Los Angeles, and she works as a psychiatric social worker where she assists individuals experiencing homelessness as well as severe and persistent mental illnesses. Dara is passionate about helping people improve their overall wellbeing, especially Black women. Before becoming a clinical social worker, Dara spent seven plus years working as a writer and editor, including as an associate web editor at Cosmopolitan and the managing editor at XXL. Her book, Self-Care for Black Women: 150 Ways to Radically Accept and Prioritize Your Mind, Body, and Soul, is coming out in January 2022. And I'm just in love with that title. So thank you so much for making time to talk with me, Dara.
Dara: Thank you for having me.
Ariel: So let's start off with, what are some signs that you are really clicking with your editor?
Dara: Yeah, absolutely. I think one sign is like when they're laughing at my jokes. You know, when they give compliments and suggest edits that makes sense and also sound like my voice. To me it says that they’re understanding of my writing.
And like when I worked at Cosmo, there was one editor named Michelle Ruiz—who I loved working with, now she's a freelance journalist and like Vogue.com contributing editor—and she would always provide me with really good feedback and constructive feedback about my writing and also gave me some great structural writing as well. I also think it's the way I was receptive to her feedback and also the way she was receptive to my writing. Yeah.
And with my book, they had hired a Black developmental editor, which made me have a sigh of relief because I just knew that if there was someone who could identify with my work, she would also hopefully identify with my writing style. And of course she did. It was perfect. It was really cool because it was like her first big publishing house editing job after she decided to go freelance. And it was also like my first book after I decided to step back into journalism. And so she understood my African American Vernacular and slang and my jokes and my timing.
I would say when they understand my humor in my writing, because I… I think I'm funny, but… if the editor gets my jokes and gets what I'm trying to say then I think, I think we're hitting it off very well.
Ariel: Yeah. Well, especially with comedy, like, it has to hit at exactly the right time. And so making sure that your editor gets your rhythm.
Dara: Absolutely, yeah.
Ariel: Yeah.
Dara: Absolutely, the rhythm.
Ariel: So you were assigned at editor, you didn't have a choice?
Dara: No, no, no, I didn't have a choice. And honestly, it was divine timing in my opinion, but I didn't have a choice. I mean, I feel like if I had someone I wanted to suggest they probably would have taken my suggestion, but it's my first book with a huge publishing house. I'm new to the game. I'm new to the rodeo. So I'm like I don't really know how everything works. But if they had given me a developmental editor that was not Black, I definitely would have been like, well, can we find someone else?
My copy editor, however, she was… I do not think she was Black, based on some of her notes. She had a question about something that I wrote, that was definitely a joke. And it was a very innocent way of her asking something, she was like, “Well, why are we telling readers to mind their business and drink their water?” and I was like, “Ma'am, it's a joke.” And like in my notes, I was like, “Please do not edit this out. Any Black woman who read this, they will actually get the joke I'm trying to make,” and I also had to check with some of my friends just to make sure I wasn't tripping and I wasn't not making sense, and I was. My friends laughed.
When it's an editor who may not understand your slang, it can sometimes be difficult, but I also understand that most editors, good editors are not, you know, trying to bring you down. They're trying to just bring out your voice even more.
Ariel: Yeah. I think that I've worked on exactly one project that had strong AAVE. And I was so worried that I was gonna step on that author's toes. So what are some points of your particular use of AAVE that you think editors either aren't aware of or are inclined to erase?
Dara: I don't know if tonality is the right word. So when I worked at Cosmo—and this was like, to me, this is many moons ago, and it's what… What year is it? It's maybe nine years ago, but which was just at the start of what it is now. The website, because I worked for the website—and towards the end of it, I had an editor who, when I wrote a story was, I think it was called like “Shit to Not Say to Black Girls,” it was like a listicle or something, you know, cuz those were, well, those are still popular online. But it was really popular back then.
And her feedback was just like it sounds angry. And I don't think she realized that that's a microaggression to basically tell a Black woman that she sounds angry. And it kind of tripped me up and it made me second guess what I was writing because I was like, Well, I don't want to sound too mean.
But I think tonality is like the best thing that I think some editors may not be aware of. Sometimes they want to change the structure of a sentence, because well grammar obviously and rules, which by the way, suck. I took one grammar class in my undergrad and because I was like, I'm going to be an editor, like I need to make sure I understand grammar and I just remember being like, all these rules, all these exceptions. I'm just like, so everything is one way but then sometimes it could be another way. But sometimes you know with the structure with AAVE like sometimes I want to just intentionally say like, “it do be like that.”
Ariel: Sometimes it do.
Dara: Yeah, sometimes it do be like that. Like I don't necessarily want to be in the proper like, “it is going to be like that” or “this is how it is,” like you know, so I would say it's like the tonality and the sentence structure are the two things that sometimes editors might erase, not realizing that it's written that way on purpose.
Ariel: And then are there any proactive steps that you would recommend writers take when they work with a new editor to make sure that that voice stays intact?
Dara: Yeah. Well, I mean, first off, like I said, I think a good editor is not trying to tear your work up. They want to bring out your voice even stronger. So like, don't be afraid to speak up for things you care about and offer a suggested edit in your voice. As writers, we are artists, and I like to quote this famous quote by Erykah Badu, in one of her songs that was recorded live she goes, “I'm an artist and I'm sensitive about my shit.” I told my editor at Simon and Schuster this when I sent her like the fourth version of my author bio.
We're artists. So we're going to be sensitive, but also don't be afraid to just speak up and ask questions. You know, I’ll ask them why they suggested that edit. And you might even like, learn more, learn more about sentence structure and paragraphs and all those things.
Ariel: Yeah. I want to make it really clear: I don't think it's all on the writer.
Dara: Right, right. I agree with that. I definitely agree with that. I realized that… because at the time I got my book deal, I also decided to do some freelance editing. And when I was in the magazine industry, they would always be like, “Oh, well, which one do you feel like you're better at? Are you a writer or an editor?” And I’d always be like, I don't know. I basically do both every day. And I realize that being a writer is like being the talent. And then like the editors are like the managers, but they’re also obviously talented and they like really help guide you and tell the talent what to do. And I like being talent because I just like to show up and do the work and then have someone else fix everything and tell me what I need to do next.
Ariel: Hair flip! So when you get that guidance or direction from an editor, how do you process it? Let's start with the really literal. Like maybe you use a spreadsheet or highlighters or post-its. Literally how are you approaching this mountain of feedback?
Dara: Good question. So, let's see. At first I was like, I don't know if I have a technical way, but generally, I would read through the edits first. All of them. Note the feedback and see if I understand the direction they want me to go in. I'll ask questions if I need anything clarified, and I'll note what I don't agree with and see if it's because the editor has a better direction or I'm just being sensitive.
Ariel: Right? Like is it a gut reaction or do I just need time for this to sit?
Dara: Yeah, no, absolutely. Like, with my book, my editor, she basically… One of the edits back was, “Oh, this feels overwritten,” or, “Oh, this feels choppy,” or something. And I was, at first I was like, “Well, what do you mean? You guys wanted me to do all these extra pages.” And then I was like, You know… she's right. You're right. Yes. I was tired. I was on edge when I wrote it that day. It makes sense. But yeah, it's like you got to check. Is it emotional?
Ariel: Yeah. And then how can you tell when it's good, helpful guidance and then what’s not for you?
Dara: You know, that's a tough question. I would say, criticism without direction. And it's been a while since I've got direction that was just like, “Oh, this sounds angry,” or “Oh, this doesn't make sense,” and then they didn't offer any feedback. Good helpful guidance is, “hey, this is why this doesn't work. This is what we're thinking would work better. Can you try and do it this way?” Versus “this doesn't work” and then you're like, okay, so why?
Ariel: And then you still have the option to say, you know, I disagree with you. I want to leave it the way it is, or, or thank you for that feedback. I see what you're going with, but how about we try this instead?
Dara: Yes, absolutely. Absolutely.
Ariel: Which takes a little bit of like confidence in yourself.
Dara: Mhmm, mhmm.
Ariel: And then how do you know when you've done enough to address all of those concerns?
Dara: You know, when the editor maybe stops asking? I don't really know. But usually when I reread the notes, I like to go back and reread the notes and make sure I've hit the points that they suggested. And I tried to include what they asked for and hope for the best.
Ariel: So you’re checking it off like “Got that, got that.”
Dara: Yeah, got that, got that?
Ariel: I hate that, got that…
Dara: Yeah, and I actively try if they're like, oh, like, you know, the sentences are too short, like, try to make them flow a little bit better. You know, I try to keep that in mind as well.
Ariel: And then in your pre-interview, you also mentioned something about imposter syndrome. So when does that crop up?
Dara: Oh my gosh, yes, I had crazy imposter syndrome while writing the book. I just didn't understand one how I got a book deal that basically landed in my lap, figuratively. To briefly explain my book deal process, which isn't normal: basically, Simon and Schuster had reached out to me, like an editor was in my inbox, and I was like, ha, this is a joke! I was like, no one is literally asking me to write my dream book on a March Wednesday, like. I'm like, this was a joke, like this is not real.
Ariel: Oh my gosh, it’s so magical!
Dara: And then so I screenshot, I sent it to my friends who know that I want to write a book. And I was just like, is this real? What? So after going back and forth and like, talking to them and realizing like, oh, this—Adams Media, which is the publishing house, they're an imprint of Simon and Schuster—and realizing like, oh, this… oh, they actually exist. Oh, this person actually exists, and I had to have my friends really remind me that while it figuratively landed in my lap, it had been, you know, years of work, of, you know, being an editor and being a writer and being able to produce this type of content that they wanted and then also becoming a social worker, which also gave me another lens into the type of book I'm writing, or I wrote, and yeah, so.
Eventually I let it go. But it took a lot of, like, I had to have a lot of social support from my friends and remind myself that I was made for this moment and also, I think as writers, when you go back and read your writing, sometimes you're like, oh, yeah, I did write that. That came from my head. Oh, my gosh, I'm so good. You know, sometimes you're like, wow, I wrote that? Like, where did that come from in my head.
Ariel: You said, “I was made for this moment.” And it’s so good! Oh!
Dara: Yes, I was made for this moment, especially because they asked me to hand in a manuscript in two months. If I had not gone through having to write like ten articles a day for basically like two and a half years, I don't know if I would have been able to do that. I think I was fueled by passion and also expertise and skill. But yeah, it's definitely like, after I handed everything in, I was like, Oh my gosh, I'm done. Oh my goodness.
So you had to write it and hand it in in two months. And then publishing runway is so long. That it's not even coming out until January.
Dara: Exactly.
Ariel: What stage is it in now?
Dara: Right now? I am done. I looked over my finished design pages and everything in layout like two weeks ago, I believe, and I provided the final feedback. At that point, I really didn't have a lot of feedback. Or I, I really didn't have any rewrites because they were pretty much like, you know, in when it was in its final document, they're like, “Make sure this is how you want it in print,” and I was pretty much confident with it.
I mean, of course now there's some things I look at and I'm like, well, do I want to change that, or I'm I just being obsessive? Well, I will say when you're on an editorial team, you kind of just have to trust the other people as well to…
Ariel: Oof.
Dara: Yeah, to do the edits. Just entrusting that they have the project's best idea, best view at hand, like they have the project in their mind and how they want it to turn out and they want it to be the best it can be. So it's not just all on you as the writer. So I had to just kind of like let it go. Let it go. But yes, I'm done. Thank goodness!
Ariel: Oof. And you’ll find those last few typos like in February. No big deal.
Dara: Oh my gosh! Hope not.
Ariel: So, in addition to writing a new book, you also worked in magazines for a good chunk of your career. And I'm curious about this. So is there a big difference in the editing process for books versus magazines, and which industry has had a better process for you personally?
Dara: I think I like dealing with book editors better. I mean, yes, my turnaround time was pretty short. When you're dealing with magazines in particular and also online articles, it's like the turnaround is very is… it's rapid. It's quick. It needs to be exactly how you want it to be. As soon as it goes up that day, as soon as it goes into print.
Double XL, which is a hip hop publication, at one point, I was… I was the managing editor. So I was helping with the design of the… of the magazine, and I just remember being so stressed like going over final edits over Christmas break with like the designer, and I was so tired and annoyed reading and editing all these pages, all like, you know, however pages there are in a magazine 100 and something, over Christmas break and I'm like whatever and then it goes to print and then you see something that is a typo and you're like ah!
Ariel: Ah!
Dara: Dang it. With magazines you also deal with a lot of strong and rude personalities. And I think editors in magazines—I don't know about book publishing because everyone in Simon and Schuster and Adams Media was very, very, very sweet and very nice. And very like, like, “oh my gosh, thank you so much writing this book.” That's the attitude to them, like “I thank you so much for this, oh my god thank you,” just so grateful.
Whereas like in magazines, you know, editors tend to gain a bit of an ego because you're fed the Kool Aid that you know, your shit don't stink and that everybody wants your job, and while yes, it’s a powerful job and sometimes you lose perspective, and I know I've definitely had a point where I was like that when I worked at Cosmo, because you really are given the Kool Aid there. They tell you when you’re at Cosmo, it's—at the time—68 million, you know, it's 68 global, whatever, publications around the world, 68, countries or whatever. And it was just a lot it's just a lot and everyone has a… has like their say, and I think in magazines it's, sometimes it can be like person focused like the people are very ego focused, like they're very like, this is what I want it to be, whereas like with the book, I've noticed it's very like, okay, will this make sense for the project? Will this make sense for the audience? Where there is that in magazines, but for the most part, it's like oh, what, what do I think looks better or what do I like?
Ariel: Can I just ask, how hard did your eyes roll when I introduced you and I pronounced it X-X-L?
Dara: Oh, no, that's, that's okay. You say both ways. I think you say XXL, or but I think Double XL. Because it's like the T-shirt size.
Ariel: Oh!
Dara: I don't know. I'm not the biggest Hip Hop head but I took the job because it was like I had not been an in editorial job for like six or seven months. Or no, nine months before I got the job. And I was just like, I want to be in publishing again. And I can manage people and I can edit. So I'll do that. But yeah, I think it's Double XL.
Ariel: Okay, so let's go over the questions I ask every author I talk to. First, what do you hate about the editing process?
Dara: Mmm, the rewriting. I wish everything that came out of my head was exactly how it should be. But I know that's not reality. The first draft is literally, literally that: it's the draft. But sometimes I wish it was just like, “okay, one and done.”
Ariel: So you don't feel like your first draft is garbage?
Dara: Umm, no, I do feel like it’s garbage. Now I wish it wasn't, you know, I wish it was like the one and done, but I know it's not. I know there's going to be like, I have to go back and rewrite and do it all over again.
Ariel: And so while you're doing that, what's the most common bit of feedback you receive on your writing?
Dara: That I’m choppy? So I sometimes write how I talk, and I like choppy sentences because it's my style, and by choppy I mean short. I think shorter sentences get to the point, but it doesn't always flow very well when you read it. So… I've been better at that. Twitter has influenced me a bit, you know.
Ariel: 140 characters is all we got.
Dara: That’s all we got.
Ariel: That’s never enough.
Dara: No.
Ariel: I thread everything.
Dara: Exactly.
Ariel: You have any last words of advice?
Dara: Keep writing. I think that is the best advice especially if you're a writer. Or if you're an editor keep editing. Right before I got the book deal, I had started like a secret blog where I was writing again.
Ariel: How secret is this blog? Can we still find it today?
Dara: I mean, I’m not… I’m never gonna reveal it. It's like a fictional dating blog. Like based on my life. My face can't be tied to it because some of the facts are very, very real. I just needed to start writing again just to be able to get out of my head.
And keep writing is something other writers have told me that's something I… you know, not till recently but I actually was like, yeah, you know what, that is right. You should just keep writing. Simple, but it really, that’s it, just keep writing.
Ariel: The last portion of our program is a Hot and Wholesome Gossip Corner! Are there any other writers or creators doing something you're excited about? Any shoutouts you want to give or people you want to lift up?
Dara: I'll definitely shout out the Benton sisters. So Amelia Benton and Carla Benton. They are twins. Funny story: When we were in New York, we went to this like editor event, and I saw Carla and I hugged Carla thinking it was Amelia and then she was like I'm not I was like oh my god. Exactly like her. Well yeah, cuz they're twins.
So Amelia is a freelance journalist and her sister Carla is a senior production editor at MacMillan.
And Amelia is basically how I re-entered writing in the journalism world. We went to undergraduate journalism school together, and she used me as an expert in a Women's Health magazine issue last year. And it basically led to other writers reaching out and it also empowered me to really pursue editing again, which just put myself out there and I really believe putting myself out there like somehow called in this book deal, because they found me and they basically saw that I used to write and then I have this whole wellness background.
And Carla, I ran to her for advice on publishing. She was very, very helpful. She sent me like a copy editor sheet example when I wanted to start editing again and she basically also pointed me to your podcast. Yeah, she was like, well, maybe you should go on here.
You know, and I just think it's so important for editors and writers, especially editors and writers of color, to support each other because Carla and Emilia are both Latina. This industry can feel a bit lonely.
And also Carla was a copy editor on The Other Black Girl, which was a very popular book that just came out and that's just a subtle flex for her, and I'm grateful to have her in my corner.
Ariel: I love it. Well, if you want to check out Dara’s work, you can follow her on your favorite social media platform @OludaraAdeeyo. Be sure to preorder her book, Self-Care for Black Women: 150 Ways to Radically Accept and Prioritize Your Mind, Body, and Soul, coming out in January 2022. Get that from your favorite indie shop, okay? And thank you so much for talking with me, Dara!
Dara: Yes, thank you!
Ariel: If you loved this episode of Edit Your Darlings, why not share it with a friend? Remember to rate and review on Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast fix. For show notes go to edityourdarlings. com, follow us on Twitter and Instagram @editpodcast, or I'm @arielcopyedits. Until next week, cheers!