This week, I continue my interview with Chris Winkle and Oren Ashkenazi, the writers and editors in charge of Mythcreants. We discuss the magic ingredient of good feedback: actionable comments! We also cover how they split their time between writing and editing and more.
Music: Harlequin by Kevin MacLeod
Link: https://incompetech.filmmusic.io/song/3858-harlequin
License: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
Show Notes:
Follow them on Twitter: @Mythcreants
Kimberly Grey, Ascendant: https://authorkimberlygrey.com/ascendant/
Elly Bangs, author: http://www.elbangs.com/
Unity, available from Tachyon Publications: https://tachyonpublications.com/product/unity/
Mad Max: Fury Road: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1392190/
Mythcreants Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/Mythcreants
Transcript:
Ariel: Hi there and welcome to Edit Your Darlings, a podcast that tries to take the sting out of editing by talking with darling authors about their experiences. I’m your host, Ariel Anderson, and this week I continue my interview with Mythcreants writers and editors Chris Winkle and Oren Ashkenazi. Be sure to check out Part 1. We’re gonna pick up right were we left off!
You both agreed on one point, you said that editing needs to be actionable in order to be useful, and not all advice is, so what sort of actionable advice have you gotten recently? And how did you know that it was the right action to take for your story?
Oren: Ooh, I got I got some here. Okay. In the original outline of my novel, my character did not have an arc. But she had lots of things that implied an arc. What I had basically done was set up several arcs, and then not conclude them, like a rude boy. So that was a problem, which I had not noticed, because I thought that my character is fine, cuz she was beautiful and perfect and mine.
Chris took a look at this, and she was like uh-uh, uh-uh. She gave me very specific advice about how this character should have an arc because having the arc will make the story better. And because I had started some, and you got to finish what you start, mister! And so that was very, very specific. So you could have this character have this arc where she comes to terms with the legacy of her family, which she both hates, but also wants back because they're all dead. And it's like, yeah, that sounds like a great arc. Why didn't I think of that? That's what editing is for. As opposed to like, being like, this character just doesn't have enough emotional depth, Oren. Because that's like, Well, what do I do with that?
Chris: Well, she had emotional depth. It's just... In that situation, what actually happened is I identified four different potential arcs that she could have based on the emotional depth he was trying to put in the story without actually creating an arc. And I asked him which one of these do you want to be her arc. And then he was like, actually, I want both of these two, can I have them both? And I said, Actually, yes, I think I can combine them together. And then I told him, here's the moments where these should go in based on what you have. So I gave him a very specific instructions about how to modify his story.
Actionable... first of all, if an editor tells you “do this,” and they're very specific, that's obviously actionable. But I also think that just being clear about what the issue is in the story is oftentimes also actionable. It does take more knowledge on the writer’s part to know how to solve it. And some writers will have more trouble than that than others. Like, I'm generally fine as a writer with an editor telling me, “I think this is this is a problem” as long as I understand the origins of that problem. It's a little hard to talk about this without talking about what's not actionable.
But if, for instance, the editor comes up to me and was like, this specific area is slow, I know how to solve that myself. So I don't need the editor to say, “hey, I want you to do X, Y, and Z, I want you to, you know, build up the thread of the antagonist, or I want you to cut this in half, or I want you to do specific things to make it more tense.” A lot of times, I have the knowledge base to know how to make that section more tense. But if I didn't, right, then that wouldn't be actionable, because I would have no idea what to do with it. And there have been some situation where it's like, hey, these antagonists don't feel consistent. So it’s like, okay, I know the problem, but I have no idea why the editor thinks that or what they're doing that feels inconsistent to the editor. And so then I have no idea how to solve it. And it's not actionable.
Oren: Yeah, and it depends a lot on where the author is on their skill progression tree as it were. And I tend to provide specific recommendations when I'm an editor, just because the authors that I'm working with are at the level where they usually need that. And once they get up to Chris's level, they don't always need that. I'm still at the level where I definitely need it. Just because revisions are hard enough for me that like, basically, any revision, any problem that I am told about that doesn't have a solution attached is like, well, that problem is impossible. You have asked me to divide by zero just can't be done. I'm sorry.
Chris: I think it's also important to express what the problem is. Because, you know, if the author is doesn't know what to do, or they're, they're more empowered than they can use that to come up with their own solution, right, and that's great.
Oren: Right, I put that in my recommendations. I'm pointing out the issue and why it's a problem. And I'm offering suggestions. But you are also just welcome to make up your own. And I've had authors do that sometimes when they come back to me a second time. And sometimes they have fixed problems in ways I was not expecting but that work fine.
Chris: Sometimes with character likability, that becomes really hard. It's like, people don't like my character. And sometimes beta readers can't identify why they don't like the character. And it's really hard to pin down, like, what happened with the character, what is it about the character that, you know, turned them off? I spend my entire time hunting it down and like testing more beta readers and changing things and...Yeah, it's basically whether or not you know what to do to fix it, is what I would define actionable as.
Ariel: It's been interesting being on the other side, and being your copy editors, because the two of you take such different approaches to accepting or rejecting my comments like, Oren is just like, yes, yes, accepted. I'll accept that. I like that. I'll accept that. And Chris is like, mmmmm, noooo.
Chris: I try to at least give my own edit. Right. Like I tried to look at it. Like, if there's an edit that that didn't jive for me, I try to look at Okay, what is... what bothered Ariel here, that she wants to address. And then what I do is I try to come up with my own edit that addresses whatever bothered you and then I try to run it by you afterwards to verify that my edit was sufficient. So, But it’s true. Sometimes it doesn't, it's sometimes the suggestion just doesn't meet my very specific requirements for that line.
Oren: Chris is at the level where she is using specific words to create an enhanced effect. Whereas I'm at the level where I have a story I want to tell you and I have to trap it in words first. So for me, it's like, whatever the plot’s the same, the wording almost doesn't matter. As long as the plot is unchanged, it's like, Yeah, absolutely. That sounds like... that sounds fine. Ariel knows better than I do. I don't have to think about it. Just accept, accept, accept.
Ariel: Oren does a really great job of taking that feedback. That's like, here is what I see in this line. Here's my suggestion for it. And then he'll do something completely different. I'll be like, oh, yep, nope, that's, that's better.
Oren: If you say so! I would not have noticed that, but...
Ariel: But it still addresses the problem, right? And then with Chris, a lot of things that Chris and I argue about are like the difference between a comma and a semicolon. Because the pace matters so much to her. And that is something that a good copy editor will just be like, okay, I'll point it out. And you could take it or leave it, we can put it on the style sheet. I'm fine with that.
Chris: Yeah, I have to say I am an auditory thinker, I think in sound. I get especially picky about dialogue, and exactly how my dialogue is, and sometimes I'm like, okay, but like you put a comma in the dialogue, and yes, technically, there should be a comma there. But I feel like it has a different mood. And the character’s not really communicating the same thing with that pause there. And I get really fussy about those kinds of things.
I did really appreciate, Ariel, with my last story, just like the pointing out when there were lines that you’re like, “I think you can do better here.” Like, the story is really pretty this line is not, I think you can do better!
Ariel: They were really gentle, gentle nudges!
Chris: The thing that I learned from my last story after beta readers, was that, okay, yes, I spent a lot of time making my description pretty, but my internal narration, you know, of what my character’s thinking also needs to be pretty and I have not spent as much effort on that. And so I need to, you know, maybe it's only getting so far with this story. But the next story, that's something I need to pay much closer attention to, because I'm getting feedback from people that are like, “Oh, your descriptions great, but like these internal narration lines are boring me.”
So, that's good. And I’ve had situations where my content editor came back, and just marked my like, first opening line of my story as like, you can do better, I've seen you write way better opening lines. For some writers that wouldn't be constructive at all. But sometimes for me, I do just need to kind of a little kick in the butt. Different for different people.
Oren: Chris will fight you over the semicolon, though.
Ariel: She will. And she’ll win!
Chris: Well, you know, the writer always wins over their own story, right? The editor can give their opinion, but....
Ariel: Yes, as they should.
Ariel: Are you constantly writing one story while you're editing another story and keeping it rolling like that? Or are you all in on one story at a time?
Oren: I mean, I take whatever I can get. My writing process is very dependent on whatever my mental health is in a given week and my workload. Usually what happens is that I will write a story and then get stuck in the editing process. And I don't usually have the energy to start writing a different story even if I wanted to. I guess I'm all in on one story, but it's more just because I don't think I could start another one than because I'm making like a conscious tacticool editing choice.
Chris: It's varied for me. Certainly, with short stories, I would sometimes be working on drafting one while having another ready to edit on especially if you know, you're working with an editor, and you're waiting for the editor to get back to you. You know, sometimes you get done with it, you send it out, then you have to wait. And so then you start working on the story. Now that I'm trying to, I'm starting to up my length of stories, I'm a lot more in a mindset of focusing on one story for a period of time, and then moving on to the next and not doing them simultaneously.
I think for me, partly, it's that it really helps for me to have my mindset in that particular story. When I stop working on a story, I just am not in that mindset anymore, I lose excitement over it, and just not as into it. It really is helpful for me to set aside large chunks of time and to really focus on one story, in particular, because I just have trouble switching back and forth. And drafting a story takes just all of my brain power, and all of my concentration, all of my dedication, and trying to divide my time is usually not helpful. That said, I still sometimes, you know, have some things are going simultaneously. And I have time set aside for creative work. But sometimes that's time to split between different projects.
Ariel: And the benefit there is that this is short fiction, so you're not having to wait a month and a half before your copy editor can even pick up the manuscript and get it back to you, right? Publishing timelines for long form are so much longer.
Oren: Yeah, the big advantage of short stories is just that you get a much faster turnaround time, which can be very helpful, especially if you're still working to develop some of your fundamental techniques.
Chris: Yeah, if the actual schedule works out, I would prefer to see one story all the way through. But sometimes that's not efficient, cuz you just end up twiddling your thumbs.
Ariel: So let's transition to the questions that I asked every author I talk to. First, what do you hate about the editing process?
Oren: I mean, am I allowed to say the whole thing?
No! You’re an editor!
Chris: I would say Oren has a lot of empathy for the people that he edits.
Oren: I hate changing the story. I don't really mind changing the words in particular, like you’ve noticed with your copyedits. Generally speaking, as long as the plot and the characters stay the same, it isn't that big a deal to me to change the wording, but like, you know, sometimes, if you wrote this character that they have a vengeance thing that you just don't have time in the story to finish and you're not going to so you have to take out that vengeance thing. But like, I wanted them to have that vengeance thing. That's essential to them in my head. They are Vengeance B oy, even though that's not really part of the story, and it needs to go. And I hate it. I don't I don't want to I would like to not do that. But I also want people to enjoy the story and for it to be good. So I try to fight past that. But that's the part I hate the most is the actually changing, the revision, I guess, is that part of it.
Chris: What do I hate the most? Okay, my least favorite part of the revision process... You mean specifically working with an editor or just revising your work in general?
Ariel: Either.
Chris: Okay, so the thing that is my least favorite part is when you know things have to change, but the story... you've already done so much work on the story, and it's already pretty polished. And anything you change is gonna like affect other things as well. So, towards the end of the process, you know, especially with beta reading, it's like I have a smaller and smaller willingness to make large changes
In the beginning, when I'm planning and looking at the first few versions, the first time I send it to my content editor, usually larger revisions are okay. But then later, it's always just, okay, what's good enough? Well, especially when we get to the beta readers, it's like, I've already been through so many stages. And if I change this, that's gonna affect everything else. And I can't change one piece without disturbing the whole. And then I'm just trying to keep the scope of how much revisions I'm doing to a reasonable level. I find that uncomfortable.
I would, if I had the choice, want to, like take every single issue that beta readers have, and then spend all the time in the world making sure it was 100% solved. Course, I don't have that many beta readers. But if I had like an infinite number of beta readers to do beta reading rounds... And so having, like, just practical limitations on how much work I am willing to do, or what to do, especially when the story already has so much that's working, and I don't want to disrupt it, I just find that like, less than ideal. I don't like that part. But I do really like that working with an editor is always an opportunity for me to learn more. Right. Like, I was just saying that I had feedback that my internal narration could be better, you know, and some of that feedback came from you, Ariel. And that was great, because that was a new thing that I learned that I will now pay attention to you from now on. And, as I've gotten better, I more and more value those learning experiences.
Ariel: Yeah, so thinking about pull one thread and the whole thing comes unraveled. That makes me think about, when I'm proofreading, I have to stick to a certain level of editing. If I find something that needs, needs to be changed, I can change it. But if I find something that could be changed, I have to consider how far reaching is that change going to be? How many edits will it actually require? And if it's too large, then I just have to ignore it.
Chris: Hmm.
Oren: I mean, when I am an editor, this is why I always try to go with the smallest possible change philosophy. Because I try as hard as possible to look at what ripple effects a thing that I'm recommending will have, because I don't want to break something that's already working by suggesting changing something else, or even just have unexpected changes to something that the author liked but that isn't part of the recommendation. That can really discourage authors and make them less likely to follow advice. Now, sometimes there are limits to what I can do, right? With really rough manuscripts, t here is sometimes just like, you know, these are the things you have to change first. And yes, that will have big ramifications for other parts of the story. But there's only so much I can do about that. But whenever I can, I'm always like, Look, this is the smallest change you can make that will fix the problem and bring your story in line to what you want it to be. And I don't know, my clients seem to get value from that.
Ariel: Yeah. What is the most common bit of feedback you receive on your writing?
Oren: Chris, would you say that it's I need more novelty?
Ariel: But you have lady space pirates!
Oren: Yeah, but like, I mean, there are a lot of stories about lady space pirates, okay?
Chris: I would say that as our writing has evolved, that has changed. Oren, as much as he says, I don't care about the words he has actually improved his word craft quite a bit. And for him, it actually used to be that people would find his work craft really stale. They wouldn't find enough entertainment in just reading the words. But that has definitely at least reduced by a significant extent as he's gotten better. In the last few stories written, I don't think we've gotten any of those comments at all. But that used to be an ongoing thing that he would have, right, is he would, either writing would be too distant, or would be too objective or be like, people didn't know how to express what they felt about his word craft. But like, there were patterns there that I could identify.
For me, I had a situation with my short stories, where when I was looking for content editors, I had people, you know, Hey, could you just take a look at some of my short stories on the site, I don't need paid editing for them, they're published, I'm not changing them. I just, you know, as a demonstration of what you do, which, you know, maybe, don't always feel good about wasting people's time. But as it becomes harder for me to find an editor, who has the level of storytelling skill that I need, it’s something that I decided to do. And I had a lot of responses, and the most common thing that I found was that everybody's like, you're summarizing too much. But yeah, I definitely was summarizing too much.
But as my stories have gotten longer, the temptation to summarize has gone down, and now I'm actively pushing against that. So, that has definitely been an issue in my work. It wasn't an issue in my last story. So I'm hoping that it's now better. I think the battle for me is finding the problems. And then if I can find them, solving them is easier.
Ariel: Do you have any last words of advice?
Oren: Mmm. Write good.
Chris: That’s a dangerous question to ask us, Ariel.
Oren: My advice would be to read all of Chris's articles on Mythcreants.com, because they are very helpful. And they contain much wisdom.
Chris: Oh, let's see. I guess, if I were to, to give a last piece of advice about the editing process and the writing process and working with editors, I would say to pay attention, both as a writer in the editing advice you're receiving and as the editor in the advice that you're giving about what is craft advice and what is process advice. Because for instance, if you tell somebody to get better at dialogue by listening to people, that's process advice. If you tell people that I just get the feeling that you don't know what's in this room, that's why your description is vague. So I want you to, to get some... make some drawings before you write the scene—that's process advice.
Whereas craft advice is, your dialogue is too verbose, you need to cut it down. Or craft advice is, you know, when your character walks into a new room, take a few sentences to write what's in that room. That's craft advice. It’s not that process advice can't be helpful, obviously. We could spend the whole time talking about process. Lots, most writers need process help. But I think a lot of times process advice can't always substitute for craft advice. Because process advice doesn't tell you what exactly is wrong on the page and what exactly needs to be different on the page. And so you're hoping that by just doing a different thing, you can get a better outcome without actually understanding what outcome it is you're getting or like what exactly in the words you're doing differently.
I'm definitely a big advocate for, fully understanding what, you know, the craft of writing entails. And I know lots of other people like to write with our gut, or do it more based on intuition. I think you can do both. Craft advice just involves a lot more understanding. Process advice, again, can be enormously helpful. But just recognizing the difference, I think, is important. And, you know, if an editor gives you process advice when you need craft advice, you know, catching that and asking them some follow up questions, you know, to learn what you need to learn, I think, be really helpful.
Ariel: Yeah. I'm amazed at times I send out emails with the manuscript and my editorial letter and the style sheet and at the end of the email, I always say, feel free to reach out if you have any questions, and I've had like two authors ever reach back with follow up questions and They've been the most amazing conversations. I learn something, they learn something. But why doesn’t it happen more often?
Oren: Yeah, I almost always get people, my clients, they almost always come back with questions. Huh.
Ariel: Man, did I choose the wrong type of editing?
Oren: I mean, it might just be that your copy editing and so they have fewer things they want to ask questions about . It's like, yeah, this all seems very good and straightforward. Whereas with me, it's there's a little bit of like, how dare you?
Chris: Also, besides it being really straightforward, I think there's also a lot of it. Like, if you have a large document, and you have marks all through the documents, if they do have questions, those questions might seem really small in comparison to the whole scope of what you've done. Where it's like, they'd have to stop and write down what their question is to even keep track of it, so they'd have to remember it later. Whereas, you know, with content editing, it's like big-picture work that's on big pieces of the story. It also it's just much more vague than when you make actual marks on somebody's work. Right. So there's more clarification is needed. So that would be my guess as to why.
Definitely having an editor that you can ask follow-up questions on to make sure that you understand, I would say, especially if it's content editing is super valuable and you should definitely take advantage of that and ask follow-up questions. I’ll send my editor things like, “Okay so I see what you said. Do you think this would fix it?” Again, as long as you keep it reasonable. If you like, send your editor like 1000 words on what your plan is. That's, you should probably pay for that.
Ariel: So the last portion of our program is a hot and wholesome gossip corner. Are there any other writers or creators doing something you're excited about? Any shoutouts you want to give or people you want to lift up?
Oren: Well first I think there's this cool new podcast being made by a friend of ours named Ariel, I think people should listen to that. Two authors that I would, I would like to uplift, as it were. One, her name is Kimberly Grey and she has a novel called Ascendant. She's a former client of mine. She went through two passes on this novel. It was already pretty good the first time I looked at it, like it was in like the... it was, I would say in about the 80th percentile when I looked at it first time. And then she came back and had like implemented my changes and then come up with other changes that I hadn't even thought of, and really good. I just really liked it and it's this story about warring angels and the morality of war... but with angels, and it's super cool.
Ariel: Yeah, I got to do the copy editing for that, and it was this really brilliant mix of thrilling action and wholesome platonic relationships that I just loved.
Oren: Mhmm, oh, so great. It also has magic tree cats, which I think is a strong selling point.
Chris: Every story is better with magic cats.
Oren: It is! And so the other one is a book that's not out yet but it will be out soon. Unity by Elly Bangs. And I was a beta reader on this one. And it's a postapocalyptic story full of resource shortages and gripping problems and real weirdos that you always get in postapocalyptic settings. So if you're a Fury Road fan, you’ll be way into it, but like also there's underwater postapocalyptic stuff. And I like underwater stuff, because it's weird and creepy, so it's got all of that. The one thing about it that was weird in beta reading was that it was like, hey there’s this part where it feels like things just skipped forward. What's, what's wrong, and it's like, oh, there's a chapter missing from my beta reading version.
Ariel: Oh no!
Oren: So once I saw that, I slotted the missing chapter in, I was like, okay now everything makes perfect sense. I’m way into it. Yeah, I really like that and it's coming out soon, like within the next couple months. It has its own Amazon page already. So I would definitely recommend people check it out.
Chris: I personally have some clients that have worked really hard on their novels and I'm really proud of them, but they're not out yet. For instance, Oren has a story he's working on that I’m very excited about.
Oren: AAH! Don’t say these things!
Chrs: It’s based in the Byzantine Empire, and he has a passion for the Byzantine Empire, and it really comes out in the settings. It’s very cool.
Oren: She wouldn’t let me put in my comparison of locally made silk versus foreign imported silk, and whether or not the quality is actually different or if it's just silk snobbery. I'm very upset that you made me cut that!
Ariel: Chris, how dare you!?
Chris: I have to say, the you know the worst thing that I saw in the draft was that he had a character that was dressed up really fancy, and she was wearing like a red and gold dress with a silver necklace with blue stones in it. And that was not okay. That was just not okay. We had to fix that.
Oren: I apologize, I'm very sorry for that.
Ariel: Well, if you want to check out their work, you can go to Mythcreants.com, or you can follow them on Twitter, as @Mythcreants. And if you've got a couple extra dollars a month to chip in, go ahead and check out their Patreon. There might be a familiar face on there. Thank you again for talking with me, yall.
Oren: Thanks for having us.
Chris: Yes, thank you.
Ariel: If you loved this episode of Edit Your Darlings, why not share it with a friend? Remember to rate and review on Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast fix. For show notes go to edityourdarlings. com, follow us on Twitter and Instagram @editpodcast, or I'm @arielcopyedits. Until next week, cheers!