This week I’m joined by psychiatrist and speculative fiction writer Justin C. Key. Justin shares his experiences writing and editing for audio stories, finding a team of people to trust when you’re moving around geographically, deciding whether to revise and resubmit or to look elsewhere, and balancing the writer’s life with an outside career and why editing short stories fits better into a busy life than novels.
Music: Harlequin by Kevin MacLeod
Link: https://incompetech.filmmusic.io/song/3858-harlequin
License: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
Show Notes:
@JustinKey_MD on Twitter and Instagram
JustinCKey.com
Clarion West: https://www.clarionwest.org/
Escape Pod, “Balancing the Equation”: https://escapepod.org/2021/01/21/escape-pod-768-balancing-the-equation/
Realm, Spider King: https://www.realm.fm/shows/spider-king
Meetup.com
Marcus McLaughlin
Magazine of Fantasy & Science Fiction: https://www.sfsite.com/fsf/
Charlie Finlay: https://www.ccfinlay.com/
“One Hand in the Coffin,” Strange Horizons: http://strangehorizons.com/fiction/one-hand-in-the-coffin/
“The Perfection of Theresa Watkins,” tor.com: https://www.tor.com/2020/09/23/the-perfection-of-theresa-watkins-justin-c-key/
Cadwell Turnbull, No Gods, No Monsters
Many Worlds Collective: https://manyworldsproject.com/the-collective/
Nicole Glover: https://nicole-glover.com/
Karen Lord: https://twitter.com/drkarenlord
Sheree Renée Thomas, editor, The Magazine of Fantasy and Science Fiction: https://www.shereereneethomas.com/magazine-of-fantasy-science-fiction-1
Rebecca Campbell, “The Language Birds Speak,” Clarkeworld: https://clarkesworldmagazine.com/campbell_11_21/
Rebecca Roanhorse, Black Sun: https://rebeccaroanhorse.com/
Transcript:
Ariel: Hi there and welcome to Edit Your Darlings, a podcast that tries to take the sting out of editing by talking with darling authors about their experiences.
I'm Ariel Anderson and today I'm joined by Justin C. Key. Justin is a speculative fiction writer, psychiatrist, and a graduate of Clarion West 2015. His short stories have appeared in The Magazine of Fantasy & Science Fiction, Strange Horizons, Tor.com, Escape Pod, and Lightspeed. He is currently working on a near-future novel inspired by his medical training. When Justin isn’t writing, working with patients, or exploring Los Angeles with his wife—or guesting on certain podcasts—he’s chasing after his three young (and energetic!) children. Thank you so much for making time to talk with me, Justin.
Justin: Well, thank you for having me. Thank you for having me. It's great to be here. Great to kind of talk about my experience and would love to kind of also hear a little bit of your reflection as an editor, someone who does that.
Ariel: Yeah, so I originally reached out to you because I was curious if your approach to writing was flavored by the fact that so much of your work has been turned into audio, like your short story with Escape Pod, “Balancing the Equation,” or your recent novella Spider King. And then you told me that the works weren't really edited specifically for audio in the past, even though they were adapted. That was all done with sort of minimal changes. But you also said that your process and your mindset for writing is changing over time with a thought to the audio adaptations. So I was curious, what does that look like?
Justin: Yeah, you know, and with Escape Pod, “Balancing the Equation” was on, I was actually a slush reader for them for a period of time.
Ariel: Ooh!
Justin: As a slush reader at our level, they tell us not to think about like the audio part of the reading because they don't want us to kind of filter out something if we think that it might not be great for audio. I think that the higher level, the editors, were kind of thinking about like, would this translate well to audio? And I felt like it was something that was kind of a mystery to me. From my understanding, it was you know that dialogue is really good for audio fiction. And I think recently like, working on some audio projects, for example, I've been working on a project with Realm—can't talk about the details of it yet—but I've actually worked with working on a couple projects with them. And so I'm going through that process of writing specifically, like for audio.
And it's a big change for me, because I think that, you know, part of my writing journey is, you know, first starting out writing, you know, 15 years ago when I was in college, just flowery prose, you know, just long descriptions just trying to kind of put down all this stuff on the page. You know, first trunked novel is like 150,000 words, and you know, it's sitting, it's sitting on my bookshelf, probably never ever see the light of day.
And with audio it's thinking about, okay, how can we bring—from what I've seen—how can we bring out a lot of that in the, in the dialogue, you know? Being able to think about it like that helps with characterization and dialogue going forth in prose, just kind of thinking, Okay, how much can we get? How much of the story can we get through how people interact with other people? And so that's been something that's been, I think, really great to kind of keep in mind when writing for audio.
And it's also kind of, you know, moving things around pacing wise. So what I found when I had to recently edit a project, you know, trying to get as long or as big a block of, of dialogue together as possible. You know, and there's wiggle room to kind of that as a rule, but saying like, okay, where is this dialogue piece broken up by descriptions or interactions that maybe isn't as needed? You know, something that when you're reading on the page, it might be interesting to kind of… to know that somebody made this gesture or somebody walked over there, but it's going to just kind of caused like maybe an awkward break when you're hearing it on a podcast or on something like what Realm does.
So, being mindful of that and also, the experience of listening to audio as well. You kind of know what stands out as not translating well. There's this book, there's a series of books—I forget what it's called, and I'm not gonna say the most positive thing about it, so I'm not going to name it—but, that we will listen to and it's actually a really great series of stories, but the saids are so often that it kind of, when I'm in the car with my kids listening to it, it almost, like, it scratches my ear, like every time.
Ariel: Oh, yeah.
Justin: Every piece of dialogue, it's like Mary said, or John said, etc, etc, to the point where I was like saying it with them kind of in a mocking way. So you know, being mindful of those type of things, too.
And then another aspect that's come with writing for audio—and you know, I haven't done much of it but I'm doing, you know, doing it now—is putting in some of those audio cues or the comments, like in terms of the things that lead the voice actor for it, in terms of “this is said and a low voice” or kind of off-mic. Or sometimes in place of description, it can be like, there's a good audio production, maybe they can have, instead of it being like a block of prose, like kind of a block of audio that can recreate kind of in the same way that, like, the written word is supposed to create this whole experience in the reader, you know, that is combining all the senses even though it's just, it's reading words on a page. You know, in some ways, I think audio probably can do the same thing as where using your sense of, of hearing, but can invoke maybe all these other senses as well, depending on, you know, how well kind of the audio is put together.
Ariel: Yeah, all of those little ways that audio and video can create atmosphere that writers have to do themselves with the written word.
Justin: Yeah. It reminds me of screenwriting. You know, I've taken courses in college and have like, you know, some aspirations that one day maybe wanting to kind of dip into that. So I'm not the expert to kind of speak on like, how they're similar or the differences there. But it reminds me of it in that sense, you know, where, you know, I think screenwriting is like heavily dialogue based and then you know, some scene setting and directions and then, you know, the actors or in this case, the voice actors, you know, then make a lot of that experience as well.
Ariel: Yeah. Now, let's back up a little bit and talk about the kinds of editing you've gone through, those general topics of how you found the people you trusted for beta readers and critique partners to freelance dev editors, your agent, your in-house copyeditors and proofreaders, and sensitivity readers—whew, that’s a lot.
Justin: Yeah.
Ariel: How did you build your team?
Justin: I'm still building my team, but I've always seen the value of having a team in some way and, and I think that me personally, having had to switch up for a lot of different reasons, just in terms of like, going into different writing spaces, like in different places geographically, I've had a lot of different teams in different parts of my life.
And I've learned, one, the importance of how to kind of take feedback and take critique and, two, you know, what to do with it. What to do with when somebody is thinking that a story isn't working the right way or, you know, has suggestions that may completely seem to misalign with kind of like what my intentions were in writing the story.
So, I started writing more seriously in college. You know, during that time I took writing classes there—can't remember too much about, but I know I got, you know, feedback and instruction there—but when I graduated from college and continued to write, like, I went on meetup.com, found a writing critique group in the Bay Area.
Ariel: Ooh!
Justin: You know, started to go to that because, for one thing, it helped me with accountability. Like, writing every week, submitted something every week, and then also reading other people's writings. And then just trying to kind of see how it is that I can improve. There's some times where it can be discouraging and maybe the reason that I glossed over college is because I think back then, you know, in some of the writing classes, especially, I feel like with writing more like speculative and fantasy, I was met with kind of a less than serious outlook by some of the professors that I tried to talk with, or the creative writing teachers—
Ariel: Yeah!
Justin: —who I tried to kind of connect with, or even classes that I tried to get into. I think there was some class at the university I went to that was about the novel. And I was like, well, I want to be a novelist and I'm very serious about this. I've written one! You know, and I didn't get it.
But, you know, with critique groups, what I found is, you know, you submitting your work. You have other people who are writers who are going to kind of bring their own perspectives and their own things that they love, or that they feel or rules or what have you, and they’re gonna kind of give you feedback. And what I've learned is when somebody has an issue with something or something worked for someone, to think about, okay, what's the root problem? Because sometimes they'll give suggestions. They might give suggestions with like, if you do this with the plot or that. Sometimes that can be really helpful. But I also think that it's good to recognize when you can take the fact that somebody has a criticism and that something may not be working, but that doesn't mean that you have to accept, like, what their answer for it is.
Ariel: Yeah.
Justin: The novel that you said in your intro, I've been working on it for a few years, and you know, and now, you know, working on it with my agent, but I remember when it was maybe started as a short story or so, like years ago, I think one of the feedback was like, “Oh, does the does the antagonist have to be this—” for just to say broadly, like this, “—this AI? Can it just be like a person?” In my head, I was like, “that's the whole, you know, that was the thing that brought me to part of it.”
And so what I took that as is, okay, I want to find a way to keep this, you know, this aspect, but why isn't it working? Why isn't it working for this person? Why isn't it working for anyone else? And then trying to kind of find what the root of the problem is. And then sometimes you can do that by looking at what the consensus is, or what their patterns with a lot of different people reading it.
With that, so I’ve always had the critique group, and I've had a few different ones just because I’ve changed around geographically, but it's always good to get other… I'd say other writers’ eyes on it, too. Sometimes they'll just notice things about narrative that you know, maybe like a lay person will less so. I do have a few dedicated, unofficial, but dedicated like first readers, you know, one of my best friends, Marcus McLaughlin, and he’s godfather of my youngest child. He's always eager and wanting to kind of read like things that I've written, and I think that the benefit with that is that he's known my writing for a while. And with that, there isn't anything that will be lost between us if he's like, “Hey, this doesn't… this isn't really working for me.” Because I think he knows from that, that he's not, you know, crushing my dreams or anything like that. He's like, “I know that you're that. That you're a competent writer. I like the things that you write. This one isn't the best.” Or then on the other side, you know, it may mean something if he's like, “hey, this isn't really like one of the golden ones that you've written,” but you know, I'm able to talk with him just as somebody—because he works in tech, very smart guy—just talk with him just about kind of what things plot wise worked for him, what didn't or what things kind of like left him scratching his head.
And then there's, you know, I think that there’s working with editors after you know, sold something to magazine. And, you know, my experience for a long time has been just trying to get to the other side of like, the slush pile for a while and that's recently been changing. My experience for a long time with editors would be, their rejection letters, is it form or is it personal, you know?
And I kind of climb the ladder, especially with the Magazine of Fantasy and Science Fiction. Charlie Finlay, when he was the editor of it—he's known for doing this—giving like, very personal rejections and just saying, like, this is what worked, this is what didn't, you know, and also very encouraging, at least for me, very encouraging kind of about the writing that he did.
And I would take those with more than kind of a grain of salt, and sometimes, like change a story significantly based on those feedbacks, especially if I… if I aligned with it. And that would be to kind of get to the other side of like, trying to get that acceptance.
A lot of times though, I have found—especially I think, in the short fiction markets, and I think that this is because there's so many people putting out good stuff—that if the story is good enough to be accepted, it probably doesn't need that much work.
Ariel: Ooh!
Justin: That's one of the things that sometimes I've, I've found because I get to the other side, and then you know, get maybe like the edits back, and there isn't that much that needs to be changed or there, you know, so so it's like, okay, you know, it may be also that it's just so hard to kind of get past the gatekeepers or to get to this point, that it ends up being like the story that doesn't need that much change.
Ariel: Yeah!
Justin: On the other hand, I've had some revise and resubmit requests, which had been, I think, good, I think, experience for me. One of my stories in Strange Horizons, “One Hand in the Coffin,” “The Perfection of Theresa Watkins” was tor.com. Both of those were, they gave feedback and offered suggestions or offered kind of what may not have been working and asked if I would consider rewriting those parts or revising and resubmit. And with both of those, actually, for both of those, it took me more than a year and a half to do it.
Ariel: Ooh, oof!
Justin: But I did it and send it back, and they both were accepted by the same people that requested that.
I feel that I'm particularly open to kind of feedback, especially, even though I just said earlier that I rejected like, somebody’s feedback before, but I think I'm open to feedback that doesn't feel like it's changing, like the essence of the story, and sometimes the feedback…
For example, in “The Perfection of Theresa Watkins,” you know, I'm a mental health professional. And there was something in the story that I hadn't seen before that I was actually reinforcing like, kind of like a stereotype that those with mental illness are perpetuators of violence, when a lot of times they're more the victims of violence, and I'm like, this isn’t what I was trying to go for at all. I didn't even know this came through. And having that in my mind, I was like, okay, I know how to fix this. That was a lot more of a palatable change for me than saying like, “I really don't like the main character. Let's make the main character this completely other person or this completely other identity,” which would have been, you know, more draconian a rewrite for me.
Ariel: Yeah, so it took you a year and a half to do the revise and resubmit. If at the end of the year and a half it hadn't been accepted, would you still feel the same?
Justin: I think I would have felt I think grateful for that one. I think that it was something that… that needed to be changed.
With “One Hand in the Coffin,” it can go maybe either way on that. I'm really happy that I worked with Strange Horizons and it made in that magazine. They did really great art, and it got nominated for Ignite award, you know, all those things. I think that the push that they suggested in terms of that, what wasn't working for them, it was something that could have gone maybe a little bit either way for me, just in terms of it had to do with who was the real, I think, antagonist or kind of what some of the motives were of antagonist or that entity, and I could have tried to make it work either way in that sense.
But I felt like that it was still something powerful to have been said with the change that I did make. I ended up making a story that dealt more with the implications of, you know, losing a family member to suicide, whereas before that wasn't as much as a outright element. And it's something that I was… saw in my wheelhouse to tackle and something that I do want to tackle in my writing.
So to answer your question, I do think that I still would have taken that rejection, that final rejection, and mourned for a little bit, and then gone and submitted it somewhere else.
I always also save I save past versions of my stories.
Ariel: Ooh.
Justin: Just in case I ever want to… I feel like I want to go back. And then breaking off, like okay, I'm about to make this like significant change. Let me keep both versions because if I ever feel like this was like the wrong direction, I can go back to that one.
Ariel: Yeah, how do you keep them organized so that you know which one is which and don't accidentally submit the wrong file?
Justin: Oh, not that well, to be honest. I've done that! There's been a couple times in the past, recent past, where I've had to go back, and I seem to notice this as soon as I send it.
Ariel: Of course.
Justin: I keep a lot of things on Google Docs and I do a lot of searching, or I'll try to put in like certain phrases or things in the title to just quickly indicate to me that this is… this is the type of version it was or my like, save it is like, for example, “One Hand in the Coffin_Before Strange Horizon Rewrite.”
You know, I have sometimes just multiple files, and as the years go by, if, God forbid, if it's a project that I want to go all the way back on, it's like, oh, I need to, I need to reset this a few versions. Sometimes it could be a little bit difficult to kind of like sort through that.
And I do that, I keep documents that have scraps, like, you know, when you're cutting off big parts, or when I have to revise or edit something down myself and, you know, killing your darlings. Instead of killing them, I usually just put them off to the side somewhere so that I—
Ariel: Yes!
Justin: —can retrieve them later for some use if I need to.
Ariel: You've got a little nest of darlings.
Justin: I do. I do. It… it feels like I'm cheating in a way just because it's like, it's like I could use this in another story or, you know, I could use this as… as part of some flash fiction or something like that.
Ariel: Yeah, I don't want those words to just no longer exist.
Justin: Yes, exactly. Because it's, it feels like it'd be the worst thing if I really was trying to come back and find it. The novel I've been working on, there's been so many different iterations of cutting out the first three chapters, you know, because there's that whole… that whole advice of like, oh, the story really starts here. And then later, other eyes see it, and it's like, you know,” I feel like there needs some backstory.” I’m like, I have backstory, you know, it’s over here, let me go get it. So, having that, you know, gives me kind of security and knowing that like, that it can be used elsewhere if, if it needs to be.
Ariel: Yeah, that's just… that's just smart. Conservation of words. So you said in your pre-interview, that you wonder if you're not pushing back enough in your dealings with editors, that you hear a lot about being at odds with editors or arguing over what content should or should not make it into the final, and you haven't come across that too much. And this is the sort of conversation that really gets my heart pumping, gets that little hamster in my head spinning its tiny wheel. So two questions here. First, where do you think the idea that editors and writers are at odds comes from? Why is it so persistent?
You know, I can't remember exactly where it's from, but I feel like it's consistently like hearing, whether it's like in real-life stories or whether it's like, just in, you know, one-offs that people may say and like, if they’re writing about the writing process, or just comments that somebody may make, it’s that, like, that there's this push and pull from the editors, you know, and even that sense of like, you know, having to find the kind of an editor that like, not agree but understands your story and, you know, wants the same things for it, if you're on the same page.
And, either, I wonder, like, if I've been fortunate enough to not come to step into that, that situation where I felt like I was kind of at odds with an editor. Editorial feedback, so far, it's been like, yes, I align with this. I'm on board with this.
And sometimes I wonder like, if I'm not opinionated enough, because sometimes, even when getting like some of the edits back, you know, an editor may say, on just like, what I may see as a simple change, you know, “Let me know if you agree with this, it’s fine if not.” And I was like, well, this really seems like inconsequential to me. You know, it's kind of like a grammar point or deleting a piece of prose that felt like it may not be needed. And it makes me wonder if there are other writers who are more like, hey, you know, I put this in for reasons leave it.
Interesting thing, and I don't want to be too specific about this: I did have a project where there was a sensitivity reader. And the sensitivity reader was focusing on mental health aspects. And I don't know if they realized that I was a psychiatrist.
Ariel: Oh!
Justin: So it was interesting because some of the feedback I actually disagreed with. You know, “this isn't kind of accurate or people with this experience may not usually experience this.” And you know, for me it's like, well, I kind of, I've studied this for a long time, and I actually kind of, I do know that the way that I portrayed it actually may be accurate, etc. So, that was something that was a little bit I think, more kind of difficult, and I was like, well, how do I kind of deal with this? And I think what… how I did address it was similar to what I said, like, earlier with taking critique: it's like, okay, if they had this experience, somebody else may have too. There's something that's here that's missing in the text that could be put there to at least acknowledge that I recognize that there may be these different ways of thinking. You know, and even if it's just to put it more simply, even if it's just putting in there just, like, somebody saying, like, “I know people usually think this about this, but usually…” You know, just working that in a dialogue way or some way.
I think that was something more so where I felt like I had pushed back a little bit more, and said, “Eh, actually think that this is… you know, I don't want to change this,” and it's anxiety provoking, I think for me because there's this… this feeling of like, am I going to be too difficult and somebody's gonna take this away?
Ariel: Mmm, “Is somebody gonna take this away?”
Justin: Yeah. A big part of a big my imposter syndrome. It's like, I want to make sure that I'm balancing it well, because I'm a little bit anxious about, Did I miss something? And I had to kind of remind myself, like, no, I actually do know these things.
And I think that with the editing, if somebody comes and says this needs to be corrected, it's almost has that voice in my head like, Well, who am I to kind of disagree with this? But another stance, I've had it, say that, hey, here are the copy edits, or this is what have you, and after they've accepted it, and you can reject or accept all of them.
Ariel: Yeah.
Justin: And it's kind of interesting for me to know. So I'm like, so if I really rejected all of these, like, these grammar edits, and making sure that, like, the ellipses are right, and the spacing’s right, you all would just print this? You know, so it's kind of an interesting thing that also lets me know that they would really take it either way.
But then there's also that voice in my head that's like, I don't want to let them down. I don't want to I don't want to have fought for something that was then wrong. And then, you know, they're, they're feeling like, “man, that author Justin has the readers make making them think that the Magazine of Fantasy and Science Fiction prints errors,” you know?
Ariel: Mm, yeah, yeah. There's this power balance, because I mean, as an author, it's your work. It's your words. And so you do have the right to say, “stet, I want it the way I want it. This is my stuff. Leave it the way it is.” But then also, the publisher has the right to come in and say, “Actually, we have these standards. This is what we're doing. If you're not comfortable with doing this, we won't print it.” So there is absolutely that give and take contract between the author, the editor, and the publisher.
But yeah, feeling like, like you have that specialization, you know what two feet you're standing on, I think is where you have to sort of start getting that courage to push back. And then, I was curious about just like how much pushback would feel like “now I'm no longer an imposter.”
Justin: Being able to push back then felt good. It's also, at the same time, I also don't want to be someone who is they're actively like ignorant of somebody else's experience. You know, just because I'm, you know, a psychiatrist or mental health provider, doesn't mean that I purport to know what everybody’s experience would be. I don't think I would ever be the person to dismiss like, “hey, this term is offensive.” I think I would always be someone to explore and like, “Oh, I didn't realize that. Who is this offensive to? Why?” I don't think I would ever say be the one to say, “No, you're wrong. This isn't offensive to those people.”
Ariel: Yeah.
Justin: In terms of what level of pushback would make me feel like I'm not… You know, even pushing back I think feeds into the imposter syndrome a little bit. I think recently, I pushed back on a project that that actually had to do with, like, the audio bit and, you know, I think it was that, oh, it feels like this part that was written may not be the best for audio. And this is one of the crucial parts of the story, of the narrative. So the decision was, you know, we'll, we'll keep we'll keep it for now. And then like later, is we're kind of like doing like the production or what have you, you know, editors, I anticipate there may be problems, but we'll address it then.
So then it's kind of, you know, in my head I'm like, “Am I making more problems because I didn't just roll with it here”
And then I think the question to me is, do I also just accept it as part of the process, no matter how it ends up? But you know, hindsight is 2020 I think part of it… if you want to learn more about something, or investigate something before making the decision, even if there's nothing else more to learn, it might have still been the better decision to investigate it just in case there was something else to learn.
I think that the level of pushback isn't what's going to cure the imposter syndrome, to be honest. I think that it would be there no matter what.
Ariel: Yeah, even is there a cure?
Justin: Psssh, I don't know. I think maybe being around other imposters is secure. It's kind of more like, oh, we're all imposter so it feels… feels fine. I do think that that knowing that there are other people who have those, those same feelings. And even if you cognitively know that, that a lot of people out there have imposter syndrome, I think every time you hear somebody else, it it's like a little bit of a shock. It's like oh, okay, it’s not just me. I think you know, if anything that feels like sometimes a cure.
Ariel: I love it. Well, let's move to the questions that I ask every author I talk to. First, what do you hate about the editing process?
Justin: I know this is not what you asked, but I really, I like sometimes the editing process because my time to like prove that like I'm a good writer, I can turn this into like something great. Because sometimes what comes out initially on the page is just, you know what my brain can kind of come up with a moment. I think that it's a tedious process for me and it's a tiring process for me. I like to edit longhand. I print out my work.
Ariel: Yes! There's something about just a pen.
Justin: Yeah, yeah. And I take a pen to it. But then it's like double the time. Because then I have to go and translate those changes onto the page. And then, as I'm transferring it from back onto the computer, like going through, I'm going to be editing real time as well, anything that I didn't notice. So that it can be, you know, sometimes very time.
I think that I think one part about editing longer pieces of work is trying to keep in mind like the whole… the whole narrative. Like if I'm editing kind of like a short story, it's something that can do in like, in sittings, right and but sometimes, especially with novel, it's like okay, I have 30 minutes free. What am I really gonna be able to get done in 30 minutes by sitting down and trying to reorient myself in this whole thing? So that's actually one thing that I've been trying to figure out kind of as my you know, as my life has been—well, it's been busy for a while, you know, with three kids and med school and residency, I've done with all that, but you know, it's still, just started a private practice. So it's still like, a lot of my writing has been at night. So, short stories are easier, I think to work with in terms of like, yeah, I can go through this whole thing now. I felt like if I wanted to sit down tonight and like, edit a part of my novel, what would I be able to do that’s productive in 30 minutes? You know, I think that that's the difficult part.
Ariel: Yeah. Wow, I can't believe that anybody makes time for writing when they have children and med school and that's wild.
Justin: It's, uhh… I mean this in a positive way—I wish I had a better phrase—but it's a blessing and a curse in the sense that I'm very passionate about both of them. I think I'd gotten the advice to try to, like, just put writing on pause for a time while going through the medicine thing, but I couldn't, and I'm glad that I continued to do it. But it's one of those things that, having different things that are passions, also means that I'm kind of like, you know, for lack of a better word, never satisfied.
Like even today. Objectively, I’ve accomplished a lot today. I've seen patients, like; I’m on a podcast, being able to kind of talk to someone who’s interested in my perspective; going home, getting the kids getting them all ready. But then when it's… when everybody goes to bed tonight, like, if I don't do something with my writing, I’ll feel like I'm not being productive. So, yeah, it's something that I'm kind of trying to give myself grace with. But yeah, it can be tough with a lot of different things, but it keeps me busy.
Ariel: So busy. What is the most common bit of feedback you've received on your writing?
Justin: The most common bit of feedback is that I write long, I've started to take that as more of a positive, but I think from the beginning, you know, it’s that, like, you know, “this could be trimmed down,” whether you want to say it’s bulky, whether it's too wordy or too heavy on descriptions, what have you. But I've had that since back in 2007. So it's something that I keep in mind, that I attack in kind of the editing process.
And I think on the other hand—maybe people who… editors who’ve seen my work lately, they may kind of like scoff at this as I say this—but I feel like I'm good at cutting things. At least there was a period of time when I was good at it. Maybe recently, I still end up with 7000-, 8000-word short stories when they asked for 6000, but I've gotten to a point where I feel confident saying like, okay, I need to cut 2000 words out of 8000-word story. I can do it without like taking a taken out a scene or, like, any major characters, anything like that. It's just kind of like the whittling process and like going through and be like, Oh, these two sentences can become one. I've adapted to that by knowing that a big criticism of my work, at least early on, was that it was lengthy.
Ariel: Speaking of lengthy, I forgot to keep an eye on the clock for this episode, and here Justin kindly informed me that we were about to go over time for recording and he couldn’t stay on. So, that’s my bad if the end of this episode is a little rushed!
So we will skip the last words of advice because you've been so helpful already. Let's do our Hot and Wholesome Gossip Corner! Are there any other writers or creators doing something you're excited about? Any shoutouts you want to give or people you want to lift up?
Justin: Yes, yes. So Cadwell Turnbull has a couple novels out. His latest one is No Gods, No Monsters. He started the Many Worlds Collective, it’s a collective of different writers and different short stories, so he's basically trying to bring up other writers with him with his success, and I really admire that, and he's putting out great work.
And I’ve also worked with Nicole Glover and Karen Lor, on collaborative project that hopefully one day I'll be able to tell everybody about, and they've just been really great to work with. Sheree Renée Thomas, the new like, head editor at The Magazine of Fantasy and Science Fiction is doing great things with that magazine. I'm really excited kind about this next period with that magazine.
Rebecca Campbell, she's one of my classmates from Clarion West, just had like a really great story in Clarkesworld, “The Language Birds Speak.”
And also, I’m putting a new name out here, but just somebody whose writing I really admire and their work ethic and also being, you know, very helpful and ingrained in the writing community is Rebecca Roanhorse, whose latest novel out is black sun. So yeah.
Ariel: I love the Hot and Wholesome Gossip Corner. So many good recommendations there!
Justin had to bounce before signing off, but you should definitely check out his work! Follow him as @JustinKey_MD on Twitter and Instagram, or head to his website, justinckey.com. His work in speculative fiction is all over the place, but if you’re into horror stories that explore racial injustice, I definitely recommend you head over to Realm for his unforgettable miniseries Spider King. Huge thanks to Justin for making time in his incredibly busy schedule to talk with me and lift up so many other writers.
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