This week, I’m joined by kidlit writer and copyeditor Anna Dobbin. Anna shares a secret of dynastic proportions while discussing her experiences in writing and editing pieces for two middle grade anthologies. Plus we chat about her conscious language services, in-house versus freelance editing from both sides of the desk, and what’s gone into her win jar recently.
Music: Harlequin by Kevin MacLeod
Link: https://incompetech.filmmusic.io/song/3858-harlequin
License: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
Show Notes:
@AKDobbin on Twitter
The Hero Next Door: https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/42790794
Totally Middle School: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/38398196-totally-middle-school
Linda Sue Park, https://lindasuepark.com/
Conscious Style Guide: https://consciousstyleguide.com/
Karen Yin: https://karenyin.com/ or @KarenYin on Twitter
NaNoWriMo (National Novel Writing Month)
Everything Sad Is Untrue by Daniel Nayeri: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/45916267-everything-sad-is-untrue
Year of the Reaper by Makiia Lucier: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/55959425-year-of-the-reaper
Betsy Cornwell’s Old Knitting Factory project: http://www.betsycornwell.com/the-old-knitting-factory/
We Need Diverse Books: https://diversebooks.org/
Transcript:
Ariel: Hi there and welcome to Edit Your Darlings, a podcast that tries to take the sting out of editing by talking with darling authors about their experiences. I really want to know what the story is behind that story.
I'm Ariel Anderson, and today I'm joined by Anna Dobbin. Anna’s writing has appeared in the middle grade anthologies The Hero Next Door and Totally Middle School. When she isn't writing, she copy edits middle grade and young adult books as well as fiction and nonfiction for adults, graphic novels, cookbooks, and more. She also offers conscious language editorial services to help authors and organizations improve the sensitivity and inclusivity of their writing. Thank you so much for making time to talk with me, Anna!
Anna: Thanks so much for having me.
Ariel: So, to be honest, I didn't even know that middle grade anthologies were a thing, even though I studied children's lit in college and I hadn't heard of them, until I started researching for this podcast last year. So let's start with, what's the process for placing a piece in one of these anthologies, and how much editing went into each of your stories?
Anna: Yeah, well, every anthology is a little bit different, but a lot of young adult and middle grade anthologies I see are made up of stories by authors who are established. You know, maybe they have published novels or, or what have you, and often the editor or compiler of the anthology will approach authors and ask them to be involved. But also, nowadays, I'm seeing a lot of anthologies that are, you know, they're mostly made up of stories by established authors but they'll have one or two stories by previously unpublished authors. So, the editors of these anthologies will sometimes hold a contest or an open call for submissions, and this is one way that an unpublished author can get their work placed in an anthology, and some anthologies are entirely made up of previously unpublished authors. So if you're someone who is unpublished and you're trying to get placed in an anthology, definitely be on the lookout for opportunities like these.
My process for getting involved with my two anthologies was a bit different. I actually co-wrote the short stories with Linda Sue Park, who is a Newbery Award–winning author, who also happens to be my mom.
Ariel: Oh my gosh, that's the best.
Anna: Yeah, a little fun fact about me. And, you know, being a very accomplished author, she gets offers to contribute to anthologies all the time. So, with the first anthology that we published a story in together called Totally Middle School, the editor approached my mom and asked her if she wanted to contribute. And she initially was going to say no, because she already had too much on her plate, but then my mom and I were talking and she said to me, you know, I could take on this anthology project if you helped me, if we wrote it together. So it was my mom's idea to kind of rope me in. And so the opportunity basically fell into my lap, which, you know, I knew was a great opportunity and a great privilege, really.
As for how much editing went into the stories, the most editing that happened was actually just between my mom and me, which was really fun. Basically for each of these stories we came up with a concept and an outline for each story, and then we like, we traded the manuscript back and forth. Like, I would write a scene and then pass the manuscript to her, and she would critique and edit the scene, and then write the next scene, and pass it back to me. So then I’d—
Ariel: OK, that’s a fun writing game. I like playing that game at parties. I don't know about having the pressure of like a deadline, and to get it right and to make it good. Phew!
Anna: Yeah, we were following an outline, so you know, I don't know how much outlining would happen in a party game, but so basically we would pass it back and forth and critique each other scenes, until we had the story written. Kind of as a result of that process, neither of the anthology editors had a lot of notes for us, because when, like when you cowrite something with someone else, especially someone with so much experience like my mom has, there's kind of this entire round of editing that happens before the piece even goes to the analogy editor, because you have, you know, you have two sets of eyes and you have two brains working on the manuscript before anyone else even sees it.
That was really great and the process was really smooth between us. I liked working with my mom because I felt like we could be really honest with each other. We both really cared about making the story the best that it could be. And so if something wasn't working, neither of us was afraid to be blunt and say this isn't working, right? Because it was all about crafting the story and it wasn't about our feelings.
Ariel: And you and your mother still get along.
Anna: We do! Before we went into the first anthology together I was kind of, I was a little bit nervous about how we would work together but it ended up going really, really well. You know, I think we both just would just come from this point of view where it's all about the story. And so we aren't afraid to be critical.
This would be a lot more difficult if I were collaborating with a coauthor I didn't know as well. Both you and I know how important it is to be tactful and kind when editing other people's work. Not that my mom and I weren't kind to each other, but with us there was like a certain directness that allowed us to really kind of be efficient in writing and editing the stories and allowed us to kind of get to the heart of things without worrying too much about hurting feelings.
Ariel: Were there any points that you argued about or had differences of opinions?
Anna: There were little things, yeah definitely. But, you know, we were able to work through them. You know, I, the reason I love—I enjoyed working with my mom so much is that we, we both have a real passion for line editing and precision and word choice. We're on the same wavelength in terms of like obsessing over the tiniest details. One example that pops into my head is, our story in Totally Middle School is called “Dog People,” and it has a lot of dogs in it. And I remember my mom and me like texting back and forth about what the best verb was to describe the way a Pomeranian walks.
Ariel: They kind of hop a little bit.
Anna: Yeah, so we're, we're texting like, does a Pomeranian flounce? Does it sachet, does it prance? So just texting back and forth for 10 minutes about the way a certain dog breed walks is an example of like the kind of weeds we get into and like the kind of editorial decisions that we love making together.
Ariel: Do you remember which one won out?
Anna: I think it was flounce.
Ariel: I think of, like, a standard size poodle kind of flouncing, flaunting.
Anna: Yeah.I don't know just all of those, all of those small word choice decisions, that's, that's the kind of editing that we'd love to do so I think that's one of the reasons that we got along so well in this process.
Ariel: And so, that love also carries over to your day job, and I usually try to keep this show focused on sort of the writer's perspective, but I can't resist the opportunity, because it's not every day that I get to chat with a freelance copy editor who used to work in house. So let's talk a bit about your experiences in freelance editing, versus in-house editing.
Anna: Yeah.
Ariel: So you're a copy editor. Do you do line editing as well?
Anna: I mainly do copy editing, which honestly sometimes involves a certain amount of line editing, but that's kind of like the title that I think of myself as, is freelance copy editor.
Ariel: Yeah. And so why did you switch from in-house to freelancing? Which one did you prefer or feel more empowered in?
Anna: I feel more empowered now as a freelancer for sure. I've been freelancing for about six years now.
Ariel: Oh wow!
Anna: And I think a big part of that empowered feeling is just but I feel so much more confident in my abilities as an editor, than when I was younger. So that's a big part of it, and you know I also prefer it because I love being my own boss. I love being able to work when I want to work and take time off when I want to.
One maybe disadvantage of being a freelance editor versus an in-house editor is that I no longer have influence in the decisions of which books get published at traditional publishing houses. So most of my freelance work actually comes from publishers, I mostly work with publishers rather than directly with authors. And I have some freedom in choosing which books I want to work on, but I don't have any control over which books get published, which I would have if I'd stayed on the editorial track in house.
But you know, even with that said, I still prefer what I do now. And I think one of the things that people may not realize, if they're not familiar with how things work at traditional publishing houses, is that in-house editors have so much on their plates that have nothing to do with editing. So they have to like, they have to attend tons of meetings, they have to write catalogue copy and flap copy and fill out pub cards. They have to prepare presentations to pitch their acquisitions to the marketing and sales teams. They have to solicit blurbs and they have to do a bunch of other like random administrative tasks. And when I worked in house at Houghton Mifflin Harcourt, I saw this very clearly. I could see how much responsibility the editors had outside of their editorial work. And I just, I started to wonder if that was really what I wanted for my career.
So now that I'm a freelance copy editor, I ,you know I may not have control over the books that get published. But I basically spend all my time editing. It's great. All I do is edit, which is, which is like my favorite thing to do. And like occasionally we'll have other tasks, like answering emails and like getting my stuff together during tax season or whatever but mostly, you know, when I don't have a writing project going on, I spend all day, every day editing, and this is like, this is something that I never would have been able to do if I'd stayed in house.
Ariel: Yeah, but then as a writer, writers who work with in-house copyeditors don't have to pay for that service, so why would a writer want to work with a freelancer versus an in-house editor?
Anna: Well, I think the biggest reason a writer would prefer to work with a freelancer is if the writer wants to self-publish.
Ariel: Right.
Anna: You know, there are advantages to self-publishing, and there are advantages to traditional publishing. And that's something that, you know, a writer kind of has to research and decide for themselves which is best for them. And, you know if a writer decides to go the self-publishing route, they have to realize that their book is going to be on the market with traditionally published books that have been professionally edited. So, for their book to stand out among the crowd, it needs to be professionally edited too, right? If you are self-publishing, getting your book edited by professional is not somewhere that you want to cut corners. I have worked directly with authors on a handful of occasions, and these authors were all going the self-publishing route.
Ariel: So since most of your work comes from the publishing house, you don't really, those, those authors don't get to say, “oh, I want to work with Anna.”
Anna: Occasionally I will... you know, I'll work on a manuscript by an author and they will think I've done a good job and they'll ask for me for the next novel that they write. So, I have had that experience I've also copyedited a couple of my mom's books. So she, she asked for me which...
Ariel: Ooh, that’s a flex!
Anna: I mean, she asked for me which you know kind of sounds like nepotism, but she also you know she would not suffer a fool who didn't her Chicago Manual of Style like the back of her hand, so you know, I did her two latest books. So that was a really really cool.
And, you know, even though I'm not like interacting with authors directly, sometimes a managing editor at a publisher will send along a comment from an author that just totally makes my day.
Ariel: Ooh, we’re into win jars!
Anna: Yeah, so I have a folder in my Gmail, where I keep compliments from managing editors and from authors, because it's just nice to have those things to look at, you know, when you need a boost. One author said she appreciated how thoughtful and thorough I was, and that she felt like she was in good hands all the way through.
And also I admit that sometimes, after I turn in a copyediting job to a publisher, I'll snoop on the author’s social media, to see if they say anything about it. So a few times I've seen authors tweet nice things about my copyedits, so I have a handful of those tweets in my win jar as well.
Ariel: I love following authors who say nice things about copyeditors. I just, I love it I'm not their copyeditor and I'm just like, “Oh, they're so nice!”
Anna: Yeah, yeah it's true. I mean, I feel like, some authors like really appreciate what we do and some are kind of more skeptical, but you know I just want to say if anyone is like skeptical about copyediting, like copyeditors are on your side! We want to help you make the book as good as it can be. So, yeah it's definitely nice to see authors like tweet about copyeditors that they appreciate, because sometimes our work is not always appreciated.
Ariel: And then some writers are editors, and some editors are writers, but we're not all both. How has being an editor influenced your own writing practices, and vice versa?
Anna: Well, being an editor, I would say definitely makes me more open to feedback on my own writing. So, you know, one example of this is when someone reads my work and comments on a sentence or something, And they say something like, “I don't understand what you mean here.” And I think as writers often our first instinct is to say, “well, this, this makes sense to me the way I've written this. To me the meaning is clear.” Right?
But my experience as an editor, I think, has helped me resist that instinct, and instead I asked myself, like, Okay, this sentence might make sense to me but it isn't clear to this one reader, which means it might not be clear to other readers. So how can I make this better? So instead of, you know, getting defensive about the way I phrase something, I push myself to make the writing clearer and more understandable.
Ariel: Yeah. I sometimes worry because I write that comment a whole lot, “I don't understand what you're saying here,” and I worry that the authors are going to be like, “This girl! Is she even trying?”
Anna: I make that comment too as an editor, and you know I always, like, I always read the sentence many times to make sure I'm not missing something, but you know I think that as a writer I want to, I really want to hear those comments. Just because something makes sense in my head doesn't mean it's going to make sense to everybody, and I just always want to have the audience in mind, right?
Ariel: Yeah.
Anna: And then you know, in the other direction, being a writer makes me a more sensitive editor, I think, because I know how it feels to be critiqued, and even to have my work rejected. Every time I work on someone else's manuscript, I will usually do like a first pass, where I make all of my edits and comments. And then when I'm finished, I'll do a second pass, where I look at my comments again, kind of as if I were the author. On this second pass, I will often find ways to phrase criticism more tactfully and more clearly, just find ways to be more kind and gentle with what I'm saying.
Even if you're someone with like a thick skin for criticism, it can still sting to hear it. I think, for many authors, our writing is so personal and so close to our hearts. And it's so tied up with who we are as people. So, you know, being a writer myself and knowing this and experiencing rejection and criticism, I just, I try to be kind and encouraging when I edit other people's work.
Ariel: Yeah, I have the hardest time with that when I'm doing line editing because that is an intentionally heavy edit, right? And so it's like, I'm changing a lot, and I'm making big changes, and it's like a whole transformation. And I don't know how to say this needed to happen without... without the implication that the way that it was before wasn't sufficient. You know? Anna: When I come across something that I really feel like... a sentence that needs work, being a copy editor kind of allows me to just kind of put it in a comment, rather than to outright change it, you know, so I will say, “possible rewrite” or “suggested rewrite,” like, “What do you think of this?”
Ariel: Oh, you’re so helpful!
Anna: I try to make those suggestions because once it gets to me as a copy editor, you know, you, you hope that it's been through line editing already with the in-house editor, but you know sometimes things at that stage still need...still need pretty heavy editing. I do my best to try to walk that balance between saying, “hey, this could really be better” and saying, “Is this change okay?” like, “are you okay with this?” So, it's a balance.
Ariel: Yeah, and then you offer one other service that I'm really curious about. You say that you have a conscious language editorial service. Let's talk about what is conscious language, who needs that service, what does it look like, and how can we empower writers to really own it.
Anna: Yeah, well conscious language is kind of an umbrella term for how to think about and use language in a way that is conscientious and inclusive. So, there's a lot of bias baked into the English language, even words and phrases that might seem innocuous, and as an editor and a writer, I've become passionate about conscious language and helping other authors learn about it.
When we kind of use this umbrella term, conscious language, I think this term partly comes from the fact that everybody has internalized biases, right? I have biases, authors have biases, editors have biases, everyone does. And so often, our biases are unconscious, and it takes conscious effort to notice them and to try to unlearn them. To me conscious language involves taking a critical look at our writing and making sure that we're not using language that could potentially cause harm to a reader, or cause a reader to feel excluded or erased, or perpetuate negative stereotypes of marginalized groups.
Maybe it will be helpful to give a concrete example. Let's take the phrase “ladies and gentlemen.” We hear this phrase, all the time right?
Ariel: Yeah, it's a very real... It's still in use.
Anna: Absolutely.
Ariel: [facetiously] So what's the harm?
Anna: Okay, so we hear like announcers say this phrase at events, we hear flight attendants say it on airplanes, we hear it in all sorts of contexts, right? Ladies and gentlemen, and this is an example of a phrase that might seem normal and inoffensive, until you consider the fact that not every person identifies as male or female, not every person is a lady or a gentleman. Nonbinary people and people of other genders outside the gender binary of male and female are not reflected or included in the phrase ladies and gentlemen.
So, whenever I come across this phrase in my editing work, I ask the author to consider using language that is gender neutral instead. So for this one, I love the alternative “esteemed guests” or “distinguished guests,” right, completely gender neutral. This can vary depending on the context. The word “people” often works, sometimes the word “folks” works in a more casual context.
Ariel: I’m a big fan of the word “y'all.”
Anna: “Y'all,” I love the y’all, yeah absolutely.
Ariel: It’s such a good word.
Anna: The point is that like if we can use a word or phrase that includes people rather than excludes them, why wouldn't we? Right, why wouldn't we do that? I really want writers and editors to think about the fact that just because a phrase is common. doesn't make it okay. You know, just because we're used to hearing something a certain way, doesn't mean we have to continue saying it that way. As writers and editors, we have the power, and I think the responsibility, to help shape language to be more conscious and inclusive.
And the last thing I'll say about this is that if any listeners want to learn more, I'd recommend checking out the Conscious Style Guide, at ConsciousStyleGuide.com And this is just a fantastic website that has tons of resources if you want to explore this topic.
Ariel: Yeah, and you can follow Karen Yin, on Twitter, and she was the one who started the Conscious Style Guide.
Anna: Yeah, absolutely.
Ariel: I love it. So let's move on to the questions that I asked every author I talk to. What do you hate about the editing process?
Anna: This is a hard question. I'm such a nerd, I feel like I just love the editing process. I guess, for me, the hardest part of being edited I think maybe is like the first time I read someone's editorial notes, or the first time I see someone's edits on something I've written, because there's always that like first twinge of like defensiveness. Like, “No, you're wrong. My writing is great. How dare you suggest these changes!” There's like that instinct right away to get defensive.
Ariel: “You, professional editor who I pay a lot of money, you don't know what you're talking about.”
Anna: Right, exactly. So, I think everybody, to an extent, feels that, ’cause again you know writing can be very personal and this is us pouring our hearts onto our page, so the defensiveness I think is natural, but then of course I take a breath, I step away from the edits, and I come back and I look at them again and it doesn't feel as bad.
Ariel: What do you do while you're away?
Anna: What do I do? I don't know maybe I go for a walk, I walk my dog, although I haven't been walking him lately because I live in Maryland and we have the cicada issue, and my dog has discovered the cicadas and he tries to eat them and it's really gross. I will walk away from my computer go for a walk with my dog or without my dog, and when I come back to my computer, I just kind of get over myself and I make the changes and my work is always better for it. The very first time I read edits on my work, like I wouldn't say hate it, but there can definitely be some like initial defensiveness and irritation that isn’t very pleasant.
Ariel: Yeah. So what's the most common bit of feedback you receive on your writing?
Anna: I talked earlier about how sometimes a reader or an editor will tell me like, “I don't get this. What do you mean here?” And I think that, you know, sometimes there will be an understanding or some kind of context or assumption, just in my own brain, that isn't coming across on the page. Generally speaking, that's probably what I see the most often with just feedback, asking me to convey what I mean, in a way that is more universal.
Ariel: Yeah. Do you feel like it's a matter of word choice or underwriting?
Anna: For me probably underwriting. As an editor I feel like I have this mantra in my head that like less is more. I generally am more of a spare writer rather than like a flowery writer, so sometimes I just have to tell myself, I just need to add a little bit more here.
Ariel: And then, do you have any last words of advice?
Anna: So for aspiring writers out there who may be listening. I would love to talk about National Novel Writing Month for a second. I haven't really talked about this yet but someday I'd really like to publish YA novels. I have these two middle grade short stories that I've published, but young adult fiction is really kind of my dream. I've written two complete manuscripts, neither of which are published. I'm hopeful someday that they will be, and the way I got them written was during National Novel Writing Month, or NaNoWriMo for short. And basically, for anyone who hasn't heard of this, NaNoWriMo is this movement, every November where 10s of 1000s of people around the world attempt to write a novel in one month. So you know as far as giving advice, I can only say what has worked for me in the past, and for me, I found NaNoWriMo incredibly motivating. So if you're an aspiring writer and aspiring novelist who is motivated by deadlines and by hitting goals, like I am, check out NaNoWriMo and try it out.
Ariel: Yeah, a month is a totally reasonable time to write a novel. How long could it take, like a few weeks?
Anna: Oh yeah, I mean, to be clear, the draft that you'll have at the end is going to be a total mess. But the point is just getting the words on the page. and then once that part is done, it's incredible how much easier it is to then work with it.
Ariel: Yeah.
Anna: So I love NaNoWriMo just because it forces you to work toward this goal and to get the words on the page, even if the words are far from perfect.
Ariel: Yeah. A garbage draft is better than no draft at all.
Anna: Yes, exactly.
Ariel: So the last portion of our program is a Hot and Wholesome Gossip Corner! Are there any other writers or creators doing something you're excited about? Any shoutouts you want to give or people you want to lift up?
Anna: One of my favorite books I've read recently is Everything Sad Is Untrue. By Daniel Nayeri. It won the Prince Medal this past year, and it's so deserving of that honor. I mean I love this book so much, and I had the opportunity to work with Daniel for a few years when he was an editor at HMH, and he's just such a kind person. And so, so innovative in the way that he thinks about books and storytelling and publishing. So if you haven't read Everything Sad Is Untrue, definitely get on that.
Another author I'll shout out is Makiia Lucier, who has a book coming out in November that I copyedited called the Year of the Reaper.
Ariel: Why do I feel like I've heard of that one?
Anna: So MaKiia Lucier has published I think three books before this one then I copy edited, and the title of the book I worked on is the Year of the Reaper, and I believe it comes out in November, and it's this creepy historical fantasy with ghosts, and a mystery, and a little bit of romance, and I just, I absolutely loved it. It was one of my favorite books that I've worked on in the past year, so keep an eye out for the Year of the Reaper by Makiia Lucier.
And finally I'll give. I'll give a shout out to Betsy Cornwell, who has written several awesome YA novels. A love Betsy’s books because they're, they're so layered and beautiful and they often have feminist themes and queer characters, and I think Betsy’s books empower readers to be themselves. And I had the chance to work a little bit on Betsy’s debut novel when I was at HMH, and it's just been such a joy to see their career take off. Right now, they're working on a really cool project, where they're converting this old this old knitting factory into a childcare-inclusive arts residency for single parents, which is just amazing. So definitely check out Betsy Cornwell’s books and their old knitting factory project.
Ariel: Yeah, well if you want to check out in Anna’s work, you can follow her on Twitter as @AKDobbin or pick up a copy or three or seven of the anthology The Hero Next Door, as the proceeds go to help support We Need Diverse Books. Thank you again for talking with me, Anna.
Anna: Thank you so much for having me, this was fun!
Ariel: If you loved this episode of Edit Your Darlings, why not share it with a friend? Remember to rate and review on Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast fix. For show notes go to edityourdarlings. com, follow us on Twitter and Instagram @editpodcast, or I'm @arielcopyedits. Until next week, cheers!