This week, I’m talking with prolific children's writer and veteran editor Lisa L. Owens. Lisa explains how writing and editing children's books, from picture books to YA, can take different processes based on the author's goals to either self-publish or work with a traditional publisher. We cover which professional organizations we find meaning in, the perils of fact-checking, and how she handled one big publishing mistake.
Music: Harlequin by Kevin MacLeod
Link: https://incompetech.filmmusic.io/song/3858-harlequin
License: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
Show Notes:
Author site: llowens.com. Editorial services site: owenseditorialink.com. Twitter: @LisaLOwens; Instagram: @llowriter.
Society of Children’s Books Writers and Illustrators (SCBWI)
Carole Boston Weatherford: https://cbweatherford.com/
The Spirit of the Wild West (by Lisa)
Dori Hillistad Butler, https://www.kidswriter.com/
Kevan Atteberry https://www.kevanatteberry.com/
Anne of Green Gables
Weatherford’s R-E-S-P-E-C-T https://cbweatherford.com/books/r-e-s-p-e-c-t-aretha-franklin/ and Beauty Mark https://cbweatherford.com/books/marilynmonroe/
Heather Montgomery: https://heatherlmontgomery.com/
Don Tate: https://dontate.com/
Candace Fleming: https://www.candacefleming.com/
Steve Scheinkin: http://stevesheinkin.com/books/
Wendy Wahman: https://www.wendywahman.com/
Laurie Thompson: https://lauriethompson.com/
Clare Hodgson Meeker: https://www.claremeeker.com/
Dana Sullivan and the Dead Max series: http://www.danajsullivan.com/
Transcript:
Ariel: Hi there and welcome to Edit Your Darlings, a podcast that tries to take the sting out of editing by talking with darling authors about their experiences. I'm Ariel Anderson and today I'm joined by Lisa Owens, the author of 100+ books for the children's market and a veteran writer/editor, both in-house and freelance, who’s worked on thousands of published works for authors of all ages. Yall! She's the author of 100 books. 100! My jaw is going to be permanently stuck to the floor. So thank you so much for making time to talk with me, Lisa.
Lisa: Oh, thank you for having me. It's wonderful to talk with you today, Ariel.
Ariel: You have such an impressive career, I hardly know where to start here, so I'm going to go get a crowbar for my jaw. And meanwhile, how about giving us an overview?
Lisa: Okay, well, I started back in the last century. And, and I had always been a writer always done editing, just for myself for friends that kind of thing during school. And then I started out, seeking full-time employment for... at a newspaper, and for a while I was doing freelance recording for a couple of arts and entertainment weeklies. I loved that very much, but eventually I landed on an in-house editorial track while looking for a full time journalism job. I came across a small publisher and got a job as a proofreading coordinator at a small educational publisher.
I loved that work. I didn't know that I would love editing so much, but the great thing about that job was I got to learn about editing from the ground up, and I also was writing on the job. And while there I continued freelance writing on the side and freelance editing on the side. I was young and so it was okay for me to be working full time, and then go home at night and work some more.
Ariel: Just endless energy.
Lisa: Yes, yes, I could not do that today, I guarantee it. And I wouldn't. I mean, I'm not stupid now. But it was, it was all great for twenties, right? But that gave me really great experience in both writing and editing. I couldn't be more thankful that my path took that strange turn. It was something I didn't expect to be doing long term. I didn't expect to be a children's writer. You know, things happen for a reason, and you just find out what it is you're meant to be doing.
Ariel: You said that you were a proofreading coordinator so you've got that sort of love for proofreading in your heart. What kind of editor are you now?
Lisa: I concentrate on developmental editing now. I loved proofreading. It was a great introduction to editorial work for me, and I went up the chain from there, sort of, you know, proofreader, copy editor, editorial assistant, editor, and then on up through running an editorial department here in Seattle at another educational publisher.
I left in-house editing work to concentrate on freelancing full time. Because I became so invested in the children's publishing industry and knew that’s the direction I wanted to, you know the path I wanted to stay on, I opted to take my freelancing business full time and focus on writing as much as I could and then doing editorial projects that most spoke to me. So I've done it all I've done, I've... but I really prefer. Well I just loved developmental editing at this stage, and always have, and I still do some copy editing, but developmental editing... I just really enjoy working at that level with someone else's manuscript and coaching them through the process of making their writing shine.
Ariel: And what does developmental editing look like for children's books? Because so many people are like, you know, there's posts on Pinterest, “So, here are the six steps to writing a children's book and anybody can do it.”
Lisa: Yeah. Well, that’s cute. That's a great question because developmental editing can mean a few different things, and it depends on the publisher you're working with. It can depend on the editor you're working with. As a writer, if someone in my developmental editor and I'm writing something for hire for a school and library market publisher, that will mean, or can mean, that they have a lot more say in how the book is shaped. And so if I'm doing that job as a developmental editor in that same kind of situation, I'm likely setting up guidelines for the book, style guides, content requirements. The author absolutely has the most important input, obviously, in creating the content, but as the developmental editor in that situation, your decisions can outweigh the author’s.
That is a different take than if I'm writing a book for the trade market. Something that I've developed myself, it's my baby, all the way. If someone’s my developmental editor, they're really looking at my work and saying, you know, asking a lot of questions. If they're reading and they get... they're not sure what's going on. That's a developmental issue. If the plot doesn't seem to have the throughline that it should, you know, questions about, okay so, who is this character, what is this character's goal, and are we really seeing it play out through the book?
Ariel: How did you, as a children's author, know when you're done with developmental editing and ready to move into copy editing?
Lisa: Just for myself with my own manuscript?
Ariel: Yeah, yeah, when do you make that call? I get a lot of indie clients who come to me, and you know, maybe they think they're ready for copy editing—and I'm only a copy editor and proofreader, so I don't do any of the developmental stuff. And I always feel bad when I have to tell a client, you know, I don't think it's ready for that yet.
Lisa: Oh, sure, sure. And that's, that's very common. I really take my own writing through a very thorough process. And so I test it. I'll do my own book map for something I'm writing and test whether, you know, the plot points are coming together, I've covered the story in an even way, whether it's nonfiction or fiction, making sure that I dotted all the i's crossed all the t's and I have the content I want, the storyline I want.
I guess you just get a sense after writing for so long, you, you... Obviously being a voracious reader and editor, you can see when you— I mean, as long as you, you give it time off, you've set it aside. For me it's never all that long, but you set it aside and you let it breathe, and then you look at it again and you see what you've missed, what's not working.
And you have other people read it for you. You have, like, I'm in a critique group. I also have several other individual critique partners, that I will give my writing to and just you know get their advice, get their feedback, and it really has to be tested before you know it's done. I might think it's done before other people do, and sometimes I'm right, and it is done. Sometimes I'm not right. And it's just really important to have people in your community that you can, you know, you, you do it for them, they do it for you.
I don't employ copy editors myself. The only time that a copy editor works with my writing is when it's under contract or at the publisher. I am a copy editor. But that's not to say that, you know, I don't need copy editing, because everybody does. And I am so thankful for anyone who does that for me.
Ariel: So you said that you have a critique group that you trust.
Lisa: Yes.
Ariel: How did you find your critique group?
Lisa: Everybody who writes for children needs to be in the Society of Children's Book Writers and Illustrators. People can do the work and not be in this organization, but it's a giant community. It's an international community, and here in Seattle, we have a very large chapter, it’s a regional group called SCBWI Western Washington. Getting involved, just like you do in editorial associations—I've been involved in those too—that's where you meet your peers, and that's where you make friends doing the same thing that you're doing all alone in your office or your, wherever you're working day in and day out. I can't say enough about joining that organization to meet other people and have access to conferences and workshops and educational opportunities. All of those opportunities get you more access to information about the market, about who's publishing what, where to find an agent, where to find a publisher, you know, who you can submit to, those kinds of things. So anybody out there thinking about writing for kids needs to look up SCBWI.org right now.
Ariel: Yeah, I have definitely heard of that organization. There's a lot of overlap with SCBWI and the Northwest Editors Guild.
Lisa: Yes, yes, that's right. I used to be a member of The Guild, I love the guild. And I got so involved in the Editorial Freelancers Association, it just... I haven’t needed both, but I love... but it’s a fantastic group.
Ariel: Yeah, let's talk about how your genres flavor your editing experiences. So you work with picture books and graphic novels and children's nonfiction. You've just got such a range, and I wondered what sort of comments or concerns you have to deal with in your writing that are so specific to children's literature.
Lisa: The majority of my work has been nonfiction. I started out doing more fiction and I'm coming back around to fiction, all these years later, but nonfiction, of course, is a huge part of my professional life. And in nonfiction, the most important test—I mean, aside from the narrative that you create—is making sure that your research is strong and that you understand what resources are credible and that you're getting the sources that you need to back up every single fact that you put in a book, no matter what type of nonfiction it is. I don't do lyrical poetic nonfiction. If you're looking for that, go find Carole Boston Weatherford and read some of her work. She's a master at lyrical books in the nonfiction realm.
But anything that you put into a book has to be true and verifiable. Rigorous fact-checking processes can be stressful.
Ariel: Yeah, and you can spend, you know, months and months on the research and then never get to the writing.
Lisa: Yes and that's of course a mistake, that everybody freely makes at some point or another. My advice in that situation is to start writing as soon as you have an idea, even if just, just to trigger the writing process, you know, write out a paragraph you know start the book. You're not going to know what the book really is until you've done some research, because the research always sends you off in different ways than you might expect, or you know whatever your premise is isn't born out by the research.
So it's always important to start writing early so that you don't just get lost in researching because you'll never finish it. I mean I've had books that were, like, almost into going to press where new facts emerged even. That you can't help; that that's going to happen sometimes.
Ariel: And then you might work with a fact-checker as well. And so I'm curious about what that looks like and is it scary or is it humbling, or is it just reaffirming?
Lisa: Oh, all of that. I have one book—I won't say what it is—that's like my crowning glory in fact-checking, because I got a note. Authors don't get notes like this, but it was like the research was perfect. I have that note, I think about it often.
Ariel: Did you, like, print it out and frame it?
Lisa: I did, and it was just, it was so affirming because there wasn't anything that they could find to really challenge. And you're going to get it right, sometimes you're going, you're going to miss things other times. Somebody doing it well is challenging every single thing in your book, and you want them to. Nobody wants it to be wrong.
So how that works, is usually... sometimes it happens pre-copy editing, sometimes these days, the copy editor is also assigned to do that as roles have condensed. So what that looks like is a fact-checker will just go down the line in a manuscript and everything from a timeline to the, the time of day or the color of the curtains, anything that you might have included in the book is then challenged. They want to see your sources, and check those, and then find other sources independently. I mean, that’s a superhero job, I think.
Ariel: Yeah! I did some fact-checking... Every now and then they will come in a project that the production editor says, “And we're going to add on a little bit of fact-checking. Here’s specifically what we're concerned about.”
Lisa: Sure.
Ariel: One of them was a translated work that was set in a particular neighborhood of Spain. They were worried about, you know, what are the names of these streets, are they spelled correctly, and does the map line up, basically. So I spent a lot of time in Google Maps, and figuring out like okay they started here, and then they went to this restaurant and the manuscript says it took them 16 minutes... First off, don't be that specific!
Lisa: Yes!
Ariel: But, 16 minutes, and no Google Maps says that would be more like a 25-minute walk, so were they walking, really, really fast or, you know?
Lisa: Yeah!
Ariel: Ah! Thank goodness for real fact-checkers who do that for a career because it hurt my brain so much.
Lisa: I understand that completely. I've done that kind of thing myself where I wrote about the Chicago World's Fair. And it was one of my first books, and it's still in print, it's called The Spirit of the Wild West. It's historical fiction, and I studied the Chicago World's Fair map. I got to know every exhibit where—I mean, the book is only two thousand words, but I just wasn't going to have a detail that I couldn't pinpoint in that setting. It is, it's tough, but you know, I'm sure that author that you fact-checked for had done their homework too.
Ariel: Absolutely, and that's what blows my mind is like there's so much time spent on getting it right from both sides. And then there will still be things that somebody finds postproduction.
Lisa: Absolutely.
Ariel: One of the readers will write a review like, “This isn’t a true.” Oh, readers, we love you.
Lisa: Oh my goodness, yes. I mean I, I don't go back and read my own books a lot of the time unless I'm using it for a talk or something like that. And I went back and found that a block of text that I had identified as a sidebar, had been mixed in with the narrative.
Ariel: Oh no.
Lisa: And I immediately called the publisher, called my editor and I said, “Oh, this is horrifying!” And, you know, they weren’t able to justify the money to reprint.
Ariel: So it just lives in there? Oh no!
Lisa: It just lives there. That's one of the things. You have to learn not to be haunted by things that happen. Sometimes, something's gonna happen.
Ariel: Man, that's a hard lesson.
Lisa: It is difficult. It's very difficult, and so I don't look at that book. But it exists. No one has ever mentioned it to me, you know outside of that publisher situation. I also don't use it for author tasks. That's not true! I have, I have used it to show kids mistakes, nobody's perfect and things happen.
Ariel: So, there's that very human instinct when you find errors in your own work, right—it might be just those one or two little pesky typos that somehow get past the thousands of eyes you've had on it before it was published—but there's that human instinct to be embarrassed.
Lisa: Oh yes.
Ariel: Or to be sad. And I just, I keep wanting to throw it out into the world like that nobody is perfect. Typos are human. Typos are such a human thing. You know, these errors won't make or break your career as a writer. You're still massively impressive for having published.
Lisa: Well, yeas, errors happen, and I guarantee, there are some I don't know about. I'm positive.
Ariel: And I hope you'll never find them.
Lisa: I sort of hope that too but, but it's okay. When I do, and I really have a very open mind about it. It's fun to diagnose how something might have happened, and I never hold anything like that against an editor or a writer. I mean, unless—I'm sure there are instances that might be egregious, but not every work can be perfect, none really are, and move on!
Ariel: I don't expect every work to be perfect. I do expect every work to be edited.
Lisa: Yes, please.
Ariel: And it doesn't have to be professional editing, but it does have to be edited.
Lisa: Agreed. Now there's no substitute for that. You can do a decent job as your own editor, but it's not complete. It’s biased, just inherently. You're going to see what you intend. And you're going to miss the typos that you put in.
Ariel: And then the other thing that I wondered about children's literature in particular, right, so you have published at several different levels. You mentioned the early reader, you've got some picture books out, you've got some middle grade. Do you have YA as well?
Lisa: I do.
Ariel: Right, so, are there concerns in there like, you've got to hit a certain reading level and your editor is helping you make decisions to make sure that it fits in that kind of box?
Lisa: That can be part of it. You need to know the right tone and the right vocabulary, and reading level and that that's something that just when you do enough reading in any genre, any type of book, you know, that becomes part of your knowledge base. And of course as you do more and more writing that also helps you home in on that, the right form. I sometimes need more opinions about, I mean, I might think I'm writing at a young adult level and readers who look at it for me say, “No, it sounds like middle grade, you know the voice sounds like middle grade.” So that can happen. So, when you're working with, with an editor who's contracted you, hired you to write a specific kind of thing, then they're very much involved in giving you their opinion about whether you're meeting the markers that you need to. And then if it's something that you’ve come up with, and you're selling to an editor, they also make that determination, you know. Does it fit? Is it right for that audience, is it right for the market, is it at the right level?
Ariel: Yeah, and so do you feel like it's important for, say, indie authors who are hiring freelancers, do you feel like it's important for them to look for a freelancer who's well versed in their level of...?
Lisa: Yes, definitely.
Ariel: So they can't get away with just a freelancer who has a lot of experience in, say, adult fiction.
Lisa: I would never say they wouldn't get a good result from that. But I think it's much more productive to find someone who is actively working in the genre you're writing. Yeah.
Ariel: Yeah, yeah. I've done a couple of middle grade, they weren’t exactly books but they were like kits, like craft kits, and it was definitely a learning experience to see the level of writing and then figuring out, like, you mentioned sidebars, so that's information that's not part of the main narrative and it's off in its own box, and making sure that the right information is in the sidebar. Yeah, it's just, it was a very interesting learning experience for me for sure.
Lisa: Yeah.
Ariel: And so then there's also that writer-illustrator relationship for your graphic novels and your picture books. Is there an editing round involved with the art? Who gets the final say in that?
Lisa: Never me. I've never had any really interaction with the illustrators except for one group of small chapter books, where it was a series of character education storylines. And I did see the sketches by the Illustrator before he went into final art creation mode, just to see if they match, if they were matching the scenarios in my mind. But I didn't have authority over it, so the editor and the art director—usually the art director in the publishing house—is in charge of that.
Ariel: See, and I wanted to believe that the writer and the illustrator are like best friends who got to create it all together.
Lisa: Well, I mean that does happen with indie authors for sure. Yeah, definitely. And, I mean I have a couple of friends, their names are Dori Hillistad Butler and Kevan Atteberry, and they're very good friends at... are working on a series together. It's called Dear Beast; it's a chapter book series. So they have some contact, but even though they know each other very well they're not working together. You know, they're working for themselves.
Ariel: Yeah, so I married my high school sweetheart, and in our senior English class, we were assigned to pair up with somebody and create our own comic book. And so my husband was the illustrator and I was a writer, and we went back and forth and argued about art and storyline and then coloring it in. It was a massively fun project but there was so much butting heads. So I can kind of see how taking the writer out of that collaboration a little bit would make it easier on the publisher.
Lisa: Right, because I'm not qualified to really judge the art, you know, to a certain degree and, in some ways, especially in children books, yes the writer originates the story, but it's really a dual project where the illustrator then interprets it in their own way, and it's going to be different with every book. More often than not, you’re not working together.
Ariel: There's also something a little bit magical about getting the art at the end of the project and, and really feeling how that illustrator captured your work, and like swooning just a little
Lisa: Absolutely, it’s incredible.
Ariel: So let's move on to the questions I ask every author I talk to. First, what do you hate about the editing process?
Lisa: That is so easy and it's waiting to see the feedback. It’s waiting to see what the edits are. I want it over and done. And, and not because I have had issues with it, it's just, it's just that waiting period. It’s you don't know what's going to happen, you don't know how your work is going to be received. And I never get over that, never. I'm always very happy to see feedback and to see the edit. And, you know, but it's just the waiting, and the fear that they're going to say, “Oh this is terrible!”
Ariel: I feel like you’ve probably never gotten that particular bit of feedback.
Lisa: Well, it could happen.
Ariel: Yes yes yes. At this point in your career, having 100 published books, somebody is going to look at you and say, “Uh-uh, no, you get... nope. Get out of here.”
Lisa: Yeah, I mean, you should hear... You should hear what I say.
Ariel: Oh no!
Lisa: No, that's that's the writer's mindset. You want it to be well received, and I love nothing more than getting something back and having real happiness about what they're saying, and I also love getting it back and seeing things to address because I'm very grateful for that.
Ariel: Time to roll up your sleeves. You get to do more writing now.
Lisa: Get to do more writing, get to make it better. I agree with everything less than perfect that anything anyone has ever said about any writing of mine they see. Everything helps, every comment every pointing out of clear issues and everything helpful. Sometimes you have the opportunity as the author to decide whether to do certain edits. Maybe somebody has pointed out that something is unclear but it's your decision. And you wrestle with, okay, do I reword it?
You want it to be the best that can be and you want it to be received well by as many people reading it as possible, and so I just, I couldn't appreciate being edited more than I do, because it always helps me grow, and you never stop growing as a writer or an editor.
Ariel: So the way that you phrased it, you said, “I always agree with everything less than perfect that’s said.” And the way that you phrased that makes it sound like it's harder for you to agree when you get praised.
Lisa: Well, yes, thank you for pointing that out. I heard that coming out of my mouth and, and that's true, that's very true. I worry that someone, that maybe they're missing something, right? It’s writer neuroses, that's all it is.
Ariel: Lisa, be honest here. Do you still feel like an imposter?
Lisa: Of course!
Ariel: Oh no, you mean it never goes away?!
Lisa: Well, maybe it does. I mean, talk to me again. Let's make another appointment down the road, but—
Ariel: Okay, you let me know when you publish book number 200.
Lisa: Okay, okay, well, I'm kind of slowing down on that front. I don't expect the published book 200, let's put it that way. I'd like to publish, you know, maybe... I don't know, another 20. That'd be great.
Ariel: Oh, it's just 20 books. That’s all. Some of us are still trying to publish our first.
Lisa: Well, and you will and you can, so I'm here to tell you that.
Ariel: Aw! Okay, so what is the most common bit of feedback you receive on your writing?
Lisa: And I would say that it's that it has a strong voice, that I write with a strong voice.
Ariel: That's praise.
Lisa: It is praise, but at the same time, it's also common for me to hear that it's maybe the wrong voice. But it's always strong. And sometimes it's strong and right, and sometimes it's strong and needs adjusting, and you know that can be adjusting.
Ariel: Adjusting how?
Lisa: Adjusting the tone, and the mood, so that it is appropriate, especially when you're writing at different levels for child readers.
Ariel: Do you have any last words of advice?
Lisa: Well, besides getting involved in your writing community, whatever that might be, whether you're writing for kids or adults, really find people, professionals, doing what you're doing, so that you have peers, and you have people to run idea, bounce ideas off of, to read your writing to have you read theirs. Whether it's a critique group or just other trusted friends.
Read as much as you possibly can in the genres you write for. I can't stress that enough. That's one of the questions when I'm talking with somebody about... like an indie author about possibly editing something for them. One of the questions I always ask is, what are you reading in this particular... what are your favorites in this type of book that you've read lately? And I don't mean Anne of Green Gables.
Ariel: Right?
Lisa: I mean I do read that. I love Anne of Green Gables. But what's going on in this genre right now that you're excited about? Many times... over the years I've come across many authors who say, “I don't have time to read, I'm just writing I don't have time for that, or I don't really like children's books.” This is in particular usually comes up with children's books. “I'm wanting to write better books than what I think are out there.”
So my advice is if you're thinking that, take a step back and go to the library and read 50 titles of the same type of thing that you're trying to write. Read 100 if you can. If it’s picture books read 100 or more. You're going to learn a lot from doing that. You're going to internalize the patterns and the cadence of the book, and the voice and the age level. Really commit to reading as much as you can in the genres you're writing, and as much as you can in anything else that you can, because that is part of being a writer.
Ariel: So, the last portion of my program is a Hot and Wholesome Gossip Corner! Are there any other writers or creators doing something you're excited about? Any shoutouts you want to give or people you want to lift up.
Lisa: Well, I mentioned, Carole Boston Weatherford earlier as this incredible creator in the nonfiction space for kids, and she writes amazing lyrical poetic nonfiction. She's got some amazing books out there right now, a picture book on Aretha Franklin called RESPECT. She has a book about Marilyn Monroe and she just has all kinds of... look her up, she's got a number of, like a huge catalog of books and sometimes she also worked with her illustrator son.
And, let’s see, other favorites in children's nonfiction are Heather Montgomery, she does some amazing science titles.
Don Tate is an author-illustrator, that I was lucky enough to work with back in my in-house editor days, we both worked at the same small publisher, and he does amazing picture book biographies that he writes and illustrate.
Look up, if you're writing kid’s nonfiction, Candace Fleming and Steve Scheinkin, these are two masters of children's nonfiction.
I could just go on and on. I'd love to give fifty more people.
Ariel: That's a testament to, as you said, you read widely in the genre that you're writing in, and you've found many that you love.
Lisa: I do, I do. And you know I would give a shout out to some of my... some Seattle authors that I work with and love. Wendy Wahman is an amazing picture book author-illustrator in the area. Laurie Thompson writes fantastic nonfiction for kids. So does that my friend Clare Hodgson Meeker. My friend Dana Sullivan writes amazing graphic novels, middle grade graphic novels, she’s got the Dead Max series out now. So, give them a look.
Ariel: Yeah! And if you want to check out Lisa's work, you can follow her on Twitter as @LisaLOwens, or Instagram @llowriter. She's got an author website at llowens.com, or if you're interested in her editorial services, you can find out more at OwensEditorialInk.com And that's ink with a K. I love that choice.
Thank you again for talking with me, Lisa!
Lisa: Oh, it was my pleasure. Thanks so much for having me.
Ariel: If you loved this episode of Edit Your Darlings, why not share it with a friend? Remember to rate and review on Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast fix. For show notes go to edityourdarlings. com, follow us on Twitter and Instagram @editpodcast, or I'm @arielcopyedits. Until next week, cheers!